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Comparison of Black basing vs. Pre-shading


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^ Not uncommon on Japanese aircraft... only in reverse. They often get a weird effect where panel lines are *paler* than the surrounding surfaces.

F-15DJ-JASDF-Cope-Thunder-20060-1.jpg

F-15J_22-8938_(2).jpg

Seems to be a mix of corrosion control and cleaning, as though they're only washing along the panel lines.

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Not uncommon on Japanese aircraft... only in reverse. They often get a weird effect where panel lines are *paler* than the surrounding surfaces.

Seems to be a mix of corrosion control and cleaning, as though they're only washing along the panel lines.

That can't be real Mike. Everybody knows that if panel lines are accented in any way, it's "not realistic". :whistle:

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That can't be real Mike. Everybody knows that if panel lines are accented in any way, it's "not realistic". :whistle:/>/>/>

Yupp.. Accented panel lines are not realistic. This one actually must have been photoshopped:

Phantom.jpg

No matter how long I look at the grey in this picture, I can only find subtle preshading, not black basing in this image.

Edited by Lancer512
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Good pictures guys. Playing devils advocate, though, they show neither black basing or pre-shading. You can see SOME panel lines that are darker than others, but they aren't uniform in nature. I'll use these two pictures to show what I mean.

RightWing_1.jpg

Wings8.jpg

As you can see, there are only certain lines that are accented on the real thing, with some even being LIGHTER than a dark wash. On the model, you can see every rivet and line uniformally washed in a dark color. Some will assert that you need to break up the solid tones to make it more interesting. That just sent it into the realm of artistic license, which is just fine. It's just not realistic. At least it isn't heavy-handed. It's very restrained. Chuck's tonal variation is perfect, by the way. In the end, this is all an exercise in picking nits. As far as the lighter colored panel lines, I see it all the time on Navy jets. It's good old corrosion control.

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Good pictures guys. Playing devils advocate, though, they show neither black basing or pre-shading. You can see SOME panel lines that are darker than others, but they aren't uniform in nature. I'll use these two pictures to show what I mean.

As you can see, there are only certain lines that are accented on the real thing, with some even being LIGHTER than a dark wash. On the model, you can see every rivet and line uniformally washed in a dark color. Some will assert that you need to break up the solid tones to make it more interesting. That just sent it into the realm of artistic license, which is just fine. It's just not realistic. At least it isn't heavy-handed. It's very restrained. Chuck's tonal variation is perfect, by the way. In the end, this is all an exercise in picking nits. As far as the lighter colored panel lines, I see it all the time on Navy jets. It's good old corrosion control.

A couple of things. I did not try to replicate that wing exactly, mostly because the real deal looks quite bad and if I did that with my model, 20 guys would say that I overdid it. The other issue is that ALL kit panel lines are too large for scale, so it's hard to tone down some, while not others. Also, do you have a close-up of some of your work to share for comparison? I notice that all your pics are usually from quite far away, so I can't tell.

I'm not trying to be too sensitive- not at all. I would just like to see what you have done that captures the "right look" for comparison.

Edited by chuck540z3
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A couple of things. I did not try to replicate that wing exactly, mostly because the real deal looks quite bad and if I did that with my model, 20 guys would say that I overdid it. The other issue is that ALL kit panel lines are too large for scale, so it's hard to tone down some, while not others. Also, do you have a close-up of some of your work to share for comparison? I notice that all your pics are usually from quite far away, so I can't tell.

I'm not trying to be too sensitive- not at all. I would just like to see what you have done that captures the "right look" for comparison.

I have yet to capture it. That's why I keep playing with different techniques. I don't have any close up shots. This is the best I could find. I don't keep most of the models I build. They either go to museums or are sold off. Otherwise I'd try and take a close up shot.

In regards to 20 guys saying you overdid it, my response to them would be, "Would you like to see the picture?"

I hope you don't think I'm dissing your work. You use restrained techniques that try and strike a balance between realistic and artistic. My view is directed at the inky dark panel lines that people drool over. The point is that it's an artistic representation of how a real aircraft weathers. To be honest, I've only seen a handful of people in all my years of modeling that have been able to pull off realistic finishes. If one wants to finish artistically, that's great. Each person gets their own enjoyment out of how they approach the hobby. They just shouldn't call it realistic is all I'm saying.

7042462_orig.jpg

Edited by Darren Roberts
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I have yet to capture it. That's why I keep playing with different techniques. I don't have any close up shots. This is the best I could find. I don't keep most of the models I build. They either go to museums or are sold off. Otherwise I'd try and take a close up shot.

I hope you don't think I'm dissing your work. You use restrained techniques that try and strike a balance between realistic and artistic. My view is directed at the inky dark panel lines that people drool over. The point is that it's an artistic representation of how a real aircraft weathers. To be honest, I've only seen a handful of people in all my years of modeling that have been able to pull off realistic finishes. If one wants to finish artistically, that's great. Each person gets their own enjoyment out of how they approach the hobby. They just shouldn't call it realistic is all I'm saying.

Well said. The F-4 above is great but is on the "artistic" side of the spectrum. It's incredibly hard to pull off a truly realistic paint job. I've tried but can never seem to nail it. One thing that doesn't help is slavishly highlighting every panel line and access panel, or filling in every panel line and rivet with a wash. It's all about variation and moderation. I don't think you can provide hard and fast rules, it comes down to the modeler being able to "eyeball" it. All the techniques discussed on this thread have a place but one shouldn't be used exclusively. They are simply complementary tools in the modeler's tool box.

All that being said, at the end of the day, as long as you are pleased when you look at your model, that's all that really matters.

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I'll really add fuel to the fire. Neither technique is the best for a realistic finish. If you truly want a realistic finish, you do was actually happens on a real airplane. You start with the base coat, get it dirty, and then start lightening areas up to get tonal variation. Both of the techniques shown give a nice artistic representation, but not a realistic one.

I have yet to capture it. That's why I keep playing with different techniques. I don't have any close up shots.

Darren,

With your comments in your first post above, you infer that you know how to create the most realistic weathered finish and that the other techniques are just "artistic", but now you say that you can't do it either?

Well said. The F-4 above is great but is on the "artistic" side of the spectrum. It's incredibly hard to pull off a truly realistic paint job. I've tried but can never seem to nail it. One thing that doesn't help is slavishly highlighting every panel line and access panel, or filling in every panel line and rivet with a wash. It's all about variation and moderation. I don't think you can provide hard and fast rules, it comes down to the modeler being able to "eyeball" it. All the techniques discussed on this thread have a place but one shouldn't be used exclusively. They are simply complementary tools in the modeler's tool box.

All that being said, at the end of the day, as long as you are pleased when you look at your model, that's all that really matters.

As I said above, ALL model kits have panel lines and rivet detail that are usually too big for scale, so in the end, no model is truly "realistic". I have seen models get deductions at model contests for "inconsistent panel lines" when some panel lines were given a wash, while others weren't, so you can't win.

Edited by chuck540z3
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Darren,

With your comments in your first post above, you infer that you know how to create the most realistic weathered finish and that the other techniques are just "artistic", but now you say that you can't do it either?

As I said above, ALL model kits have panel lines and rivet detail that are usually too big for scale, so in the end, no model is truly "realistic". I have seen models get deductions at model contests for "inconsistent panel lines" when some panel lines were given a wash, while others weren't, so you can't win.

I think we best end here. It seems that we are not fully communicating and that misunderstandings leading to possible angry feelings are going to happen in the very near future, especially with not being able to judge the tone of comments on a message board. I would hate to misinterpret how something was written and have that get in the way of a good discussion. In the end, it matters not how one finishes a model, which is insignificant in the grand scheme of life. Keep building, posting, and enjoying this great hobby.

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Darren,

Your first post appeared to indicate that you had the magic bullet for proper weathering, with a bit of a description of how one should do it, so I just assumed you had some success with this method and had an example to share, that's all. I was not trying to be a jerk, so I'm sorry if you took offense.

Model on sir.

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Darren,

Your first post appeared to indicate that you had the magic bullet for proper weathering, with a bit of a description of how one should do it, so I just assumed you had some success with this method and had an example to share, that's all. I was not trying to be a jerk, so I'm sorry if you took offense.

Model on sir.

No worries. That's the problem with internet. You can never hear the tone of voice of a comment. No magic bullet. I've chatted with a couple of guys who's finishes I really like, and that's what they do. One guy even makes out a list of the color mixes he's going to use. That's the method I've started to try (minus the color mix list!). The F-100 above is the base colors, dirty with Tamiya Smoke, and lighten method. It's more to my liking, but still not quite where I want to be. I'm thinking more work with corrosion control might get me closer.

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Agreed. That is totally awesome- and an inspiration to get better.

My problem is I don't think I'll get there. Not from lack of trying, but from not having an artistic eye. You have it, as is evidenced by your builds. I see what I want the final product to be, but my hands won't get me there. I'm a good, maybe even very good, modeler, but it's my opinion that I can only go so far. The ones who are above the rest have a natural artistic bent and they just "get it" when it comes to painting and weathering. Maybe if I took some art classes. Can't you see that? "Um, sir, how can paint this model airplane to look more realistic?" I'd probably be laughed out of the room. :lol:

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I think ALL techniques can be very realistic if they are done correctly and don't go overboard, so no one weathering technique is correct or wrong.

+1

All techniques have their uses, they're just tools in the toolbox! If you need a hammer you use a hammer, not a screwdriver:)

There is no "The Technique" :P

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My problem is I don't think I'll get there. Not from lack of trying, but from not having an artistic eye. You have it, as is evidenced by your builds. I see what I want the final product to be, but my hands won't get me there. I'm a good, maybe even very good, modeler, but it's my opinion that I can only go so far. The ones who are above the rest have a natural artistic bent and they just "get it" when it comes to painting and weathering. Maybe if I took some art classes. Can't you see that? "Um, sir, how can paint this model airplane to look more realistic?" I'd probably be laughed out of the room. :lol:/>/>

Thank you Darren. You expressed my feelings perfectly. Hoping to get that good is my goal but probably not realistic for me. Building is one thing. Artistic another. :bandhead2:/>

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Thank you Darren. You expressed my feelings perfectly. Hoping to get that good is my goal but probably not realistic for me. Building is one thing. Artistic another. :bandhead2:/>/>

With the 109 I'm currently working on it is an experiment in weathering. Weathering is typically not something I do much of, I'll add exhaust stains and some paint chipping but usually that's about it. With this 109 I am really trying to get it dirty and so far it is looking alright. I don't know if I could every get something to look like that 190, but I am enjoying the practice I am getting. It really is artistic to decide what color wash complements the base color and where to add streaks, dirt, and grime. I guess I have avoided doing many like this just because putting all this weathering on top of a nicely built kit risks ruining all that work, but I started this kit with the intention of doing the black basing, adding a wash, etc.

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My problem is I don't think I'll get there. Not from lack of trying, but from not having an artistic eye. You have it, as is evidenced by your builds. I see what I want the final product to be, but my hands won't get me there. I'm a good, maybe even very good, modeler, but it's my opinion that I can only go so far. The ones who are above the rest have a natural artistic bent and they just "get it" when it comes to painting and weathering. Maybe if I took some art classes. Can't you see that? "Um, sir, how can paint this model airplane to look more realistic?" I'd probably be laughed out of the room.

Whoa, I think you are too hard on yourself, but I have a suggestion that may not apply to you, but maybe some others. After we have spent weeks, months or even years building and painting a model, it's really, really hard to "mess it up" with weathering, be it post-shading, dark washes, salt weathering, etc. If you screw it up, you screw up the whole model, so there is a tendency with some modelers to do the minimum or maybe no weathering at all. Ignoring some aircraft that are supposed to look really clean, there are very few military aircraft that are super clean all the time, so with no weathering at all they look like toys, rather than something close to the real deal. My suggestion is to paint and weather something you don't care about to experiment with, like a discarded model or large pieces of plastic. You can try all sorts of methods to weather and as a result, get artistic. Once you like what you see, you can then use whatever method you found to be successful on your model. The key point here is that you have to take some risks and stick your neck out, or you will never grow artistically. What I love about this hobby is that I am still taking risks and learning new things every year. Sometimes I really like what I did and sometimes I crash and burn, so you learn from there. There is a modeler over at LSP who is just crazy good and, like you mentioned about yourself, I will never achieve his level of skill for construction and beautiful painting. His models are gorgeous! Unfortunately, his models are always super clean because he is afraid of messing them up (his words), which really detracts from what the model could be. On the flip side, some guys go way too far with weathering and I think they do wreck the model, but like art, my opinion is of course subjective.

Here's a very interesting subject that Jari (Finn) posted in the Jet Forum of a F-104S Italian Starfighter. In my opinion, for all the push back on pre-shading panel lines these days, this subject really should have pre-shading on some of those panel lines near the rear. I also think that the black basing method would really look effective underneath the lighter grey areas, but why not just paint a marbled pattern of black instead when a few of those panel lines are pre-shaded? Why does the model need to be all black to begin with? I don't get it.

Lockheed_F-104S_ASA-M_Starfighter_Italy.jpg

The same could be said of those Phantoms posted above. A few pre-shaded panel lines would be really effective.

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The truck-sized gap in the comparison imo is the lack of photo showing what is trying to be recreated. But as others have said, it could be one tool of many to use if the actual subject of the model has such an appearance (certainly no jet I have ever studied & modelled has a pre-shading or black-basing weathering pattern).

A fundamental shortcoming in the black-basing and pre-shading techniques, if used in isolation, is that the discoloring effect is always just a darker shade of the "main" color, which is of course not the case on real aircraft.

:cheers:

Marcel

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Hey Jim,

A few questions:

Why do you have use the black basing method in order to avoid the "Burberry scarf look"? Who is forcing anyone to pre-shade panel lines if they choose to not black base? Why not just put down a marbled look using black paint on grey instead? You don't have to do one or the other.

What is the "cover the grey" problem when you are painting grey in the first place, as used in this very video? When I paint a grey aircraft, I use a thin coat of the very grey I need as a final coat as my primer coat, and I only do that to check for flaws. With MM enamels, I have never had adhesion issues, so a true primer is unnecessary.

Chuck,

I completely agree with your assessment of using gray primer then flat black airbrushed in a random marble pattern. That's the exact method I've used on my last two builds. There really isn't any difference in the final look of black on gray, or gray on black. the most important aspect is thin, light layers of the top color or colors.

Joel

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Blackbasing is yet another technique in the toolbox, and that is fine. What I don't get is its advantages over alternatives such as post shading. Pretty much I have concluded that all the results (both the visual outcome and the time it takes) I have seen using BB can be achieved in several other ways, so BB is not a magical technique in my book. I am not dismissing it as useless, but there seems to be a big hype about it and I am just not getting that part. It's yet another way of achieving tonal variation, but it doesn't create results that are unachievable using other methods in my opinion. Also, it is not particularly more realistic compared to other shading methods I have seen.

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The same could be said of those Phantoms posted above. A few pre-shaded panel lines would be really effective.

The operative word being few. Pre-shading has it's uses, that F-104 is a good example of when it's helpful to use that technique. It's just a bit much when you see models with every single panel line and access panel slavishly pre-shaded.

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