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Attack Squadron F2F-1 : Comments and Questions


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My apologies if my comments belong in the 'Classic Aviation Forum' but I thought more members would visit this forum. I am in the process of preparing this outstanding resin kit for primer and want to get my ducks in a row before I start. I plan on using the black and white photo found at the top of page 28 of Squadron Signals Aircraft Number 160 'Grumman Biplane Fighters in Action" as my reference. These markings are found on the kit decal sheet, 2-F-1, BuNo 9646.

These are my questions and observations:

1. Would the upper wing chevron have black edging? This seemed to vary with section colour and unit.

2. The unit badge, as shown on the kit decal sheet is usually dark blue. In the b&w photo this badge appears much lighter, almost matching the red section leader markings on the nose and fuselage band. Should this badge be dark blue as shown on the decal sheet?

3. In the photo the upper wing leading edge appears lighter than the wing under surfaces. Is this where the two colours meet? Usually this upper wing colour extends further back in a sharp demarcation while this appears more like a shadow in the photo.

4. What is the small circle below the cowling on the port side of the fuselage? It appears to be a light in some photos but a dark hole in others.

5. In many photos there appears to be a light on the upper wing tips about one foot or so from the tip. It is not included in the kit. Was this found on all F2F-1's?

6. In the above mentioned photo there appears to be a metal plate where the rear upper tip of the N-strut is attached to the upper wing. It appears more polished then the rest of the fabric surface. This is not represented on the kit wings.

7. Lower wing tip hand holds are missing on the kit. These are often black in some photos but unpainted in other photos.

8. The black wing root walk ways seem to vary in width. Notice the difference in the photos of the the three aircraft on page 28 of the 'In Action' book.

Comments and observations about this aircraft would be welcomed.

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My apologies if my comments belong in the 'Classic Aviation Forum' but I thought more members would visit this forum. I am in the process of preparing this outstanding resin kit for primer and want to get my ducks in a row before I start. I plan on using the black and white photo found at the top of page 28 of Squadron Signals Aircraft Number 160 'Grumman Biplane Fighters in Action" as my reference. These markings are found on the kit decal sheet, 2-F-1, BuNo 9646.

These are my questions and observations:

1. Would the upper wing chevron have black edging? This seemed to vary with section colour and unit.The photo of this aircraft shows a thin black pinstripe for both the cowling and fuselage band marking, so it's a good bet the wing chevron would be the same.

2. The unit badge, as shown on the kit decal sheet is usually dark blue. In the b&w photo this badge appears much lighter, almost matching the red section leader markings on the nose and fuselage band. Should this badge be dark blue as shown on the decal sheet? [/color]That may be an affect of the type of film used. The CPO badge is a dark blue and the kit decal is okay.

3. In the photo the upper wing leading edge appears lighter than the wing under surfaces. Is this where the two colours meet? Usually this upper wing colour extends further back in a sharp demarcation while this appears more like a shadow in the photo.Until mid-1938, the color boundary between the upper Orange Yellow and the undersurface color was on the leading edge. After mid-1938, the Orange Yellow was wrapped around the leading edge to avoid chipping. This photo is cited as September 1937, so the leading edge boundary is correct.

4. What is the small circle below the cowling on the port side of the fuselage? It appears to be a light in some photos but a dark hole in others. Not sure what you're referring to.[color="#0000FF"]

5. In many photos there appears to be a light on the upper wing tips about one foot or so from the tip. It is not included in the kit. Was this found on all F2F-1's? That's the standard position for formation lights - just drill a small hole and add a piece of rounded clear sprue.

6. In the above mentioned photo there appears to be a metal plate where the rear upper tip of the N-strut is attached to the upper wing. It appears more polished then the rest of the fabric surface. This is not represented on the kit wings. Most of the wing is fabric, but that looks like a metal panel. Therefore, Light Gray, like the fuselage [probably - this shot is right around the point of changeover to aluminium lacquer for metal areas]..

7. Lower wing tip hand holds are missing on the kit. These are often black in some photos but unpainted in other photos.

8. The black wing root walk ways seem to vary in width. Notice the difference in the photos of the the three aircraft on page 28 of the 'In Action' book.

Comments and observations about this aircraft would be welcomed.

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Many thanks for your comments, Jim. I was hoping someone of your stature would offer opinions. It is interesting to read your comments as to the colour of the fuselage. I was sure it would have been finished in aluminum paint as most photos of other F2F-1's appear to be finished as such. The reflective qualities of the surface of the fuselage in that photo made me think it had a metallic finish. On that note, when F2F-1's and other aircraft changed over from gray to aluminum would they have re-painted the cockpit at well or just left it in gray?

As to that light lens or whatever in the lower port fuselage under the cowling I was referring to, the three view drawing on page 23 of the 'In Action' book shows this as a small circle in the front view of the drawing. The middle circle appears to be an intake of some kind but I still can't identify the other one.

Thanks again for taking the time to help out.

Added observation: While surfing the internet I found a colourized photo from that well known series of in-flight photos of the 2nd section of VF-2. It has these aircraft with lemon yellow tail surfaces. When VF-2 was aboard the Lexington the colour would have been yellow, but according to the photo captions in 'Grumman Aircraft since 1929' by Rene J Francillon these photos were taken on 7 July, 1939 when this unit was assigned to the Saratoga so the tail colours should have been white.

Edited by Brian J.
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Hi Brian - I'll be honest, I was debating with myself as to whether the metal areas were light Gray or aluminium lacquer. The photo falls right about in the time frame for the changeover and it could be either.

There are three 'holes' when viewing the lower fuselage head-on. The middle one is I assume the carb intake, with screening. The one on the port side is the landing light, angled slightly down, time for an MV lens (and there's a shiny aluminium rim)

F2F-1BuNo9630ofVF-2fromtheUSSLexington_zpswegullol.jpg

The hole on the starboard side is just a small hole. Have no idea what it's for :^)

The tail colors could have been white to reflect the period on Saratoga. But I believe that happened, for a short time, after Soucek had left command. And just to make your life more interesting, look just under the sliding canopy sill, between the N-struts. VF-2 (and VF-3) painted the regular pilot's name in about 1 inch characters (roughly Times Roman) on each assigned aircraft. Fortunately, for 2-F-1, you can predict the characters read LT CMDR SOUCEK.

Edited by jimmaas
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Jim, your comments were reassuring as I hoped to paint my model with that aluminum finish (which means of course about one month after I finish it will be proven this aircraft should be gray!). After examining the last photo you included I noticed there is some kind of formation light (?) on the leading edge of the tail plane. Would you have any idea what it is and what colour it might be?

If you want to go on and on about the subject of the F2F-1 (or other Grumman bi-planes) I'm all eyes and ears! Thanks again for your efforts.

Oh, boy...gotta stop looking at photos and get back to my model. While staring at the photo you included I noticed that the leading edge of the port tail plane is at a lower angle then the painted area on the fuselage. What was that all about? Could the angle of the entire horizontal tail surface be adjusted?

Just spent more time gawking at photos from the internet and noticed that many F2F-1's had trim tabs on either the port or starboard aileron but not both. This modification does not seem to appear in early photos. An example can be found at the bottom right photo on page 27 of the 'In Action' book of 2-MF-9. A trim tab can also be found on the rudder, something not found on the Attack Squadron kit.

Edited by Brian J.
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...

If you want to go on and on about the subject of the F2F-1 (or other Grumman bi-planes) I'm all eyes and ears! Thanks again for your efforts.

...

What he said!

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Hi Brian,

I’m sure my friend and mentor Jim won’t mind if I chime in with a few new details I found at the National Archives last year. VF-2 and the F2F-1 had a few singularities that were documented in a paper trail buried in the BuAer records, and I have a few other general answers. In the order of your questions:

1) Pin striping - generally, if you find pin striping on the fuselage stripe or nose cowl, you’ll also find it on the wing chevron.

4) Hole on left side nose - in the sharpest photos I’ve found, the hole has a short, dark pipe inside, looking like some form of exhaust. On other pix the contrast is too dark to tell if the pipe is in there.

5) Wing-top lights - these don’t appear in the earliest pix, but show up in every shot from at least 1938 on.

6) Overall color scheme - When deliveries of the F2F-1 began in early 1935, the Navy aircraft colors were still Aircraft Gray on metal and Aluminum on fabric, both in enamels. F2Fs had a minor exception in that their metal surfaces were finished in an experimental Aircraft Gray lacquer. BuAer was pleased with the results of the gray lacquer tests, but by the end of 1936 wanted to begin switching to aluminized lacquer. For F2Fs, the change was to begin on the overhaul deliveries starting on 20 April 1937 (the beginning of the annual cruise). When Norfolk objected that they had a large stock of Aircraft Gray enamel to use up, BuAer directed that the surplus paint be expended in aircraft cockpits and interiors.

By February 1938, VF-2 was reporting problems with the aluminum lacquer on F2Fs fresh out of overhaul - the masking tape used to help layout the unit markings was peeling off the new aluminum lacquer. Closeup pix show that this lacquer was exceptionally shiny, very much like the metal wing panel seen in your Sq/Sig photo. The primer application and lacquer formula were modified with better results - and a much duller finish.

7) Hand holds - In early 1936, several units reported that they were painting steps, hand holds, and cockpit rims dark blue. BuAer had no problem with the color modification, which I believe eventually made it into one of the specifications.

Horizontal tail - Yes, the stabilizers were adjustable, a very common feature on contemporary aircraft.

Anyway, it looks like you have an aluminum-finish option, if you choose the a later date than April 1937! Good luck with the build - I look forward to seeing it here!

Cheers,

Dana

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Again, many thanks to 'the Big Guys,' Jim and Dana for taking time to respond to my unending questions. It makes me realize how little I know about so many aeronautical subjects. I only wish more folks back in the '20'and '30's had taken more photos or recorded their experiences in flying and maintaining the aircraft from 'The Golden Age' of aviation.

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Hello again, and good to see Dana's info! I haven't been able to figure out the bumps at the end of the horizontal stabilizers, and I've got an inquiry in to someone who may have more F2F information (I don't claim much expertise on Grumman, having concentrated on their less-successful competitor :whistle:/> ).

We should probably use marked-up photos, cuz the description Dana used of a hole on the left side is I think higher up on the side.

Here's a shot of the tail ident light:

F2F-tailhookisshowninthiscirca1935photograph_zpsvmfeu9gj.jpg

and there's also a light on top of the fuselage on the centreline, located over the 'F', looking like a white dot in this photo:

F2F-1BuNo9624ofVF-2parkedonasnowcoveredrunway_zps2fecxosw.jpg

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Ref the small hole on the lower starboard front cowling - any chance this might be the inlet pipe for the cabin heat system? (or the carb heat inlet?)

The small hole is for the crank starter and the large hole is carb heat exhaust...port side

Rich Dann

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...and courtesy of Rich Dann, confirmation that the objects on the tips of the horizontal stabs are in fact formation lights. Going back to the Grumman Biplanes book, they also show up on the earlier two-seat FF-1 and SF-1. When everything was lit, an F2F must have been a wonderful sight at night!

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S-o-o-o, Jim, the colour of the lights on the horizontal stabs would be the same as on the wings? Red on the port and green/blue on the starboard? The lights on the top of the fuselage and the tip of the tail would be clear/white?

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The small hole is for the crank starter and the large hole is carb heat exhaust...port side

Rich Dann

A. That would be the Carb heat intake - the carb heat is exhausted into the carb when selected

B. The small hole in question is not on the port side of the aircraft, but on the starboard side (not shown in the pics but down low, just aft of the cowl and to the starboard side of the carb intake)

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It looks like we may be able to go on with more observations and questions for a long time. I may be missing the obvious, but I have another question, concerning the close up photo of the tail hook that Jim included in an earlier post. In that photo it appears the tail hook drops down from a pivot point, but would not be able to retract. Inflight photos suggest the tail hook retracted into the lower fuselage. Was the close up photo from the prototype airframe? I plan on doing my build-up in flight, wheels retracted on a stand.

A recent e-mail from Attack Squadron confirmed they will be producing a 1/72 kit of the F2F-1 in the near future. I have been waiting for decades for an accurate, detailed kit in this scale as I have long wanted to do an inflight set up of those three aircraft from the second section of VF-2.

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S-o-o-o, Jim, the colour of the lights on the horizontal stabs would be the same as on the wings? Red on the port and green/blue on the starboard? The lights on the top of the fuselage and the tip of the tail would be clear/white?

The red (port wingtip) - green (starboard wingtip) - white (tail tip) lights are 'navigation lights' and follow a more-or-less international convention that's still observed today for ships, airplanes and evidently is being introduced on spacecraft, which baffles me for sure!

'Formation lights' are different, used for placekeeping during night (or bad weather?) flying. At least for USN aircraft, these were blue through WW II - don't know about afterward. The white light on top of the fuselage is often noted as a 'section light' and I don't know how that works.

It looks like we may be able to go on with more observations and questions for a long time. I may be missing the obvious, but I have another question, concerning the close up photo of the tail hook that Jim included in an earlier post. In that photo it appears the tail hook drops down from a pivot point, but would not be able to retract. Inflight photos suggest the tail hook retracted into the lower fuselage. Was the close up photo from the prototype airframe? I plan on doing my build-up in flight, wheels retracted on a stand.

A recent e-mail from Attack Squadron confirmed they will be producing a 1/72 kit of the F2F-1 in the near future. I have been waiting for decades for an accurate, detailed kit in this scale as I have long wanted to do an inflight set up of those three aircraft from the second section of VF-2.

The whole arresting hook retracts into the fuselage when not deployed. You can see the location of the angled mechanism in this photo of the mockup:

XF2F-1MOCKUP1933%202_zpsghzk1zja.jpg

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For those who own or are working on the Attack Squadron F2F-1 kit. While assembling/gluing parts of the kit I noticed an area that might need attention. For reference I used the photo that Jim included in his March 13th posting that shows the tail section that included the arresting hook. I also referred to the photo at bottom left on page 27 of the Squadron Signal 'Grumman Biplane Fighters in Action' as well as the drawing on page 23. According to these references the horizontal stabs should have a curved notch/cut out where they meet the fuselage. The fuselage section also has a notch in it. The resin kit lacks this curved notch. Any opinions on this?

Also, is anyone aware of the length of the gun barrel sleeves for this aircraft? I'm thinking of using the Accurate Miniatures F3F-1 kit as my reference.

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For those who own or are working on the Attack Squadron F2F-1 kit. While assembling/gluing parts of the kit I noticed an area that might need attention. For reference I used the photo that Jim included in his March 13th posting that shows the tail section that included the arresting hook. I also referred to the photo at bottom left on page 27 of the Squadron Signal 'Grumman Biplane Fighters in Action' as well as the drawing on page 23. According to these references the horizontal stabs should have a curved notch/cut out where they meet the fuselage. The fuselage section also has a notch in it. The resin kit lacks this curved notch. Any opinions on this?

Also, is anyone aware of the length of the gun barrel sleeves for this aircraft? I'm thinking of using the Accurate Miniatures F3F-1 kit as my reference.

Yes. Actually, my example of the kit does have a small diagonal 'clip' at the inner rear of the elevator, but it should be bigger. A couple of swipes with a file should do. The fairing on the fuselage in the kit is straight across at the rear end, where as Brian notes it should be a concave curve. That might be difficult to fix neatly.

Using the AM F3F-1 as a template for the sleeves sounds like a good idea.

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