The Perfect Kit

[Jinxter13]

In recent years I've seen a really big change in kit quality, and I'm happy that the kits are getting more accurate in all major scales; however I've noticed that the cost of these kits have increased with the quality. I remember when I did my first kit a Monogram 1/48 Me 109, remember that kit, it cost me the outrageous sum of $1.05, and their 1/32 Mustang cost me $2.00 . My parents thought I was nutz to pay that kind of money for a plastic toy, that I had to assemble; well FF here we are today and those kits though they bring back fond memories are considered second rate, and by all accounts they are, but then that was 1950's technology. In those days it was Monogram, Hawk/Revell (the old Revell) and Aurora/Lindberg, and they all had raised lines. AMK, Hasegawa, Tamiya, Kinetic, GWH have gone to great lengths to produce a more perfect (if you will) model kit.

Now we have recessed panel lines, which are closer to the real articles in most cases, and cockpits and LG bays with the molded in plumbing and wiring..great; but you can't plop down a dollar, euro, pound, ruble, peso, etc and walk out with a kit, you gotta go deeper into your wallet, and then once it's opened ya gotta go deep again for the AM goodies to make it as close to that (insert choice of build) as possible all in pursuit of making the model a perfect replica of the real thing. Now comes the bugger...a model maker announces its plans to do X kit, and display CAD drawings and renderings, and KABOOM with in a day or so mistakes are pointed out like the tail on the model when scaled down will be 2-3 mm short or _1/16 of an inch too tall, so the maker has to go back and make changes to get it right or as anatomically close to right as is possible, now they have to spend more MMH to get it right, he or the folks he has working have to get paid they have families to support and aren't going to work for free; guess what; that is going to figure into the cost of the final product; much like the real world R&D costs. Unless the maker has a devotion to getting it right as per the comments made by folks like us (modelers) who want the most bang for the money, and will absorb the costs, hoping for a payoff in the end. When we see these drawings and such and say this is wrong, that is wrong we are covertly/subliminally demanding a better end product to which end the costs will increase.

I'm probably gonna get flamed, but think of it we will go out (some of us) and buy a $65 Hasegawa Super Hornet and then spend another $150 on AM products such as wheels, cockpits, LG bays, external upgrades, PE for the resin cockpit, etc and decals. I don't begrudge the folks who make these products anything, they offer what the basic kit does not, but the kit makers are trying to get to us a product that needs less of the AM parts. YES they are listening to and reading comments made. I'm not innocent is this by no means, and would be hypocritical to think so, I'm not as critical as some, but more critical than others, in a build I'm currently working on; a Tamiya Mossie; I found a part that was ballparked and dug out the Evergreen plasticard and am scratch building a new one. We as modelers are proud of our craft and abilities to turn a box of molded plastic into a finished kit that we are proud of, maybe not totally satisfied with but happy nevertheless, in that regard we gladly encourage the younger generation to take up what we do, however as I stated at the start my first kit was one dollar.

The kids who follow us will be dealing with something we started and their kits will be beyond the reach of most unless Dad or Mom has a 6 figure bank account or they are a professional athlete, performer, or well known on Wall street. We are currently looking a 1/48 kits near the $100 dollar mark and 1/32 kits way above that. Are we demanding ourselves into a modeling poor house where we can afford one kit a year?. I don't fault the kit makers, Resin/PE, decal folks, they have to get paid for the product the produce, and we ask for; perhaps if we take a long look at the monster we are developing we could find a way to cage it before it gets so far out of control it destroys the very hobby we love so dearly.

Ok I gotta go see if I can borrow Ironmans armor to protect myself from the slammers, HARM's and GBU's surely to be aimed my way ,

#1 Greywof has left the building

Edited March 23, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[jinmmydel]

Well I didn't read it...because paragraphs...but the gist of it sounds to me like the usual not understanding economics and inflation.

When I was a teen driving around in my Camaro gas was $0.89/gallon. A movie was $3.50 or so, and so on and so on. I think we are in the golden age of modeling. We have some seriously impressive kits. I think the Tamiya 1/32 Corsair is damn near perfect at least in the detail injection molding can provide, most definitely in engineering and fit. I dunno about accuracy, but this is ARC so if it has issues there someone will point it out.

We have manufactures catering to every price-point. Revell and Airfix fill the lower end, as well as some others. I do think the hobby seems to be drifting more toward higher end kits. They aren't for everyone, but like every other scarce resource you buy what you can afford. Some folks have champagne tastes and beer pocketbooks...that's the case with everything: cloths, cars, homes, hobbies, you name it.

Edited March 23, 2016 by jinmmydel

[Jinxter13]

Well I didn't read it...because paragraphs...but the gist of it sounds to me like the usual not understanding economics and inflation.

Economics and inflation are clearly understood, which does not figure into my thoughts, example...HobbyBoss puts out their Tomcat kits, fine...they include the engines. The allure of a finished model is what is seen; correct?; in their efforts for exacting or as close to it of the real deal why did they include those engines as once the kit is finished they will not be seen; they would be great in a dio, but as in the real thing they are there and unseen, except for the exhaust nozzles. isn't it possible that had they not included the engines the kit would be a few dollars less.

I dunno about accuracy, but this is ARC so if it has issues there someone will point it out.

ARC has some very fine and knowledgeable people here, and their knowledge is not to be questioned, and at times they disagree about some items in point, which takes us back to the OP...the kit makers will listen and go back to correct what those guys and others point out, more time needed and time spent making those corrections will cost them money which they will eventually in some cases make up in the cost of the final product. How many times has a kit been announced for release in say June, and it not be available until December of the following year. due in part to them correcting self inflicted errors or those pointed out by advisers who saw something they had missed in the planning stages. Since polystyrene is a fossil fuel by-product more or less....the cost of oil, drilling, production,refinement, drives the cost of what that polystyrene will be plays into price of the kit on the shelves, inflation the economics of it is a bit too lengthy to go in to here, but it all plays into the end costs; ;which we pay and as I said modelers desire for that "great kit" with perfect fit where little or no filler is needed, as far as we're concerned adds to the cost due to the tech needed to produce the precise molds from the exacting CAD drawings and renderings; even it the molds were perfect there are still intangibles that would make it not what it was planned to be. Yeah I guess paragraphs would help, changes have been made :) .

Edited March 23, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[MoFo]

IWe are currently looking a 1/48 kits near the $100 dollar mark and 1/32 kits way above that.

Ha!

[toadwbg]

There seems to be kits at every price point to me. I can find a Tomcat kit anywhere from $10 to $150.

Seems we have more and better choices today. I'm a happy camper.

[vince14]

Greywolf, you do know that Aftermarket products are entirely optional, don't you?

[phantom]

I am moving away from after market apart from decals of course. And sometimes seats, and sometimes..........

But I am using a little less. Saves a little coin.

[Don]

I have really been into the Revell 1/32 kit offerings as of late. Bf-109G6 and G10 kits are outstanding kits, arguably some of the best late 109's in 1/32 scale...$22ish USD. Their 1/32 JU-88 bomber...gorgeous model...$40ish USD. HE-111 and 219...WOW beauties...both less then $55 dollars. You are getting a lot of model for a very reasonable price. Kits don't have to be expensive and the modeler doesn't have to sacrifice quality/accuracy by going with a cheaper Revell or Airfix type kit. In other words we don't all need the Tamiya 1/32 Spitfire if its a 1/32 Spitfire you want to build. The Revell Mk.IIa is less then $25 and its great. And as has already been pointed out, aftermarket is completely voluntary and not necessary to enjoy the hobby.

But lets be honest, kids these days have iPads, iPhones, XBox/Playstation, Beats headphones, shoes and other articles of clothing that cost more then many models, etc etc...if they really want to get into scale modeling I don't see cost being a barrier by and large.

My two cents FWIW.

Don.

[Jinxter13]

Greywolf, you do know that Aftermarket products are entirely optional, don't you?

Yup Vince I do, for that part the demand, we put upon ourselves, as we demand from ourselves that near perfect replica; which goes to say we complain about the certain kits' cockpit being wrong, or lacking in detail so in comes Aires for example; with a close to the real deal update/upgrade replica and those cost as much as some kits. If those who follow us want that kind of perfection/quality they are going to pay for it; like we do only as stated with inflation it's gonna cost them more. All the AM products are optional we can choose to buy or go with the original, but to make a kit look as close to the real thing as possible it means ya gotta pay for it. Lets look at the Italeri 1/48 Phantom on the cover it looks like a Phantom, but open the box and a lot of guys here and in other forums would like me kick the cockpit off the table...and find if possible an AM pit to put in it, especially the seats, some would get right down to business and do it OOB, or scratch build the errant parts. It won't look like Academys or Hasegawas' offerings, but it will be a Phantom nevertheless.

Examples: Revell has a 32nd scale Spitfire for $25, but if you want that knock'em outta the park Spit with all the details, ya gotta go with Tamiya for $100+.

Added: The Tamiya Spitfire for as detailed as it is, Aires doesn't think so and has a cockpit with more detail for a measly $36(US) ahem...before taxes..oops forgot shipping, so for around $45 you can super detail an already highly detailed kit.

Edited March 24, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[mingwin]

Lucky you Clif! you don't live on my side of the border , for the matter of model kit prices... as we Canadians, have lost nearly 30% of our dollar value in the last 2-3 years. (as most of the hobby stuff isn't done in canada, we have to buy outside of our country...)

But, for absolutely everything else, i feel like i'm better served on the canadian side...

[nspreitler]

Things are expensive. A round of golf costs $50 and that's for just a few hours. Taking my family to the movies costs at least $60 with tickets, popcorn and a couple drinks. My kids (and I) love Lego sets, and the nicer ones are well over $100.

The most expensive kit in my stash is a GWH P-61, but I do have kits with a ton of aftermarket as well. My Zvezda Pe-2 was about $35, but I spent around $40 on Mr. Paint VVS colors and another $40 on Eduard photoetch set and masks. But once I start it I expect to spend a couple months on it, so it will end up costing me around $2 a day which isn't bad at all. If my son was interested in the hobby and wanted a high end kit I would probably get it for him if I knew he would put in the effort and take the time to build it. If he just wants to slap something together I'll get him a cheaper kit.

I don't think we are pricing ourselves out of a hobby, it may seem that way since we do tend to be hoarders and buy a lot more than we build. A kit with all the AM bells and whistles can easily cost $200, but if that is what you are building you may finish a half dozen at best a year. That's $1200 and in comparison to most other hobbies that is pretty cheap.

[mlicari]

What's interesting to me is that I was recently flipping through some Fine Scale Modeler issues from the 80s and there were a few letters to the editor complaining about this very thing: that "super kits" with all sorts of bells and whistles were overtaking the hobby and pricing out most people.

Seems like the more things change the more they stay the same! :)

Mike

[TaiidanTomcat]

The quality has improved and there are some jewels out there the revell F-15E in 1/48 and the super hornet come to mind. They are not perfect but for the cost they are superb.

A lot of kits are including the snazzy extras now, and yes that is raising the cost, but even then they are worth it and the kit fit is usually far better. More subjects overall too.

If you are a Russian fan the stuff available now is utterly mind blowing. 20 years ago I would have said you would never see the stuff you see now ever, gripes aside

[B-ONE27]

I am moving away from after market apart from decals of course. And sometimes seats, and sometimes..........

But I am using a little less. Saves a little coin.

Totally agreed, decals are about it...the additional resins etc, I skip.

[Ryan Hothersall]

Totally agreed, decals are about it...the additional resins etc, I skip.

Yes agree totally.

Even in 1:72, prices are starting to get a bit steep if you want to build a few of a kit.

[vh-bob]

I think that Greywolf is correct and from the point of view of someone who has no desire to spend six months turning out a single model, I feel that there is a problem in what is being offered in today's kits. I model in 1 / 72 scale and my several hundred model collection represents the history of flight, admittedly a lot to cover. I build mostly out of the box with a few home made conversions using plastic card, tube and filler and my goal is to build to the best of my ability put on a decent paint job and some aftermarket decals, then move on to the next. Here is the problem as I see it, to represent the BAC Lightning ,for example, requires a number of models. The current 1/72 Airfix Lightning in this greedy country retails at well over $50.00 and the C-47 around $ 60.00. How many C-47s could you build ?. My fear is that with the "Pocket Money " market destroyed by these prices the manufactures who seem to be chasing the rivet counters demands will not sell enough models to keep producing new kits and the once popular hobby will go the way of the Do-Do bird. If what we are hearing about Airfix sales is true, it may well have started already, after all, how many kids that build plastic models do you know ?.

[niart17]

All the AM products are optional we can choose to buy or go with the original, but to make a kit look as close to the real thing as possible it means ya gotta pay for it.

I beg to differ. I've seem some scratch built cockpits and details that WAY out-pace any after market offerings and often are done with off the shelf inexpensive items, like the old days. Its just that now there are more options to choose from. But to get a superdetailed kit doesn't mean you HAVE to buy any after market.

I think the price points for models is about what it always has been with a few exceptions. I think Revell's new Star Wars snap kits or a bit over priced, though they are nice kits, they just don't seem to be in line with what other kits go for of the same caliber. But that's just my opinion.

Bill

[Rex]

I believe that anyone that is getting "priced out of the hobby" is doing it to themselves.

This is not a plug for any certain vendor,,,,but, go here http://www.megahobby.com/ type 1/72 (or 1/48 etc) into the search box, and then display the results "price, low to high" When you do that, you find many, many kits priced lower than an hour's wages , which is just what I paid for models back in the early days of my work career (14 years old, work permit).

Now, if you HAVE to have a 1/72 AJ Savage, then you have to make your choices. But, it is our choice to "need" that model, and it is our choice whether to use modeling skills to build the vac versions, fight with the Mach 2 kit, or buy the resin Anigrand.

This boils down to some free advice,,,,,,if you can't afford 12 1/32 Super Hornets to "build a collection", then drop down to 1/48, or even gasp 1/72.

The truth is that you can easily build 200 1/72 scale aircraft models, before you have to pay your hourly wage for any.

Now, if you think you have to have a highly accurate 1/32 Super Hornet, with all the resin and etch parts you can find,,,,,,it was your own choice,,,,,and what it costs shouldn't even be a factor in those choices.

I want to build a 1/1 Hot-Rodded up '67 Cougar better than the ones I used to build and drive,,,,,,,but, I choose not to, because of the costs involved. Modeling is just the same.

[jinmmydel]

Since polystyrene is a fossil fuel by-product more or less....the cost of oil, drilling, production,refinement, drives the cost of what that polystyrene will be plays into price of the kit on the shelves, inflation the economics of it is a bit too lengthy to go in to here, but it all plays into the end costs

The price of oil is a drop in the bucket when it comes to the cost of model kit creation actually. Do you have any idea how much it costs to produce a mold? And then there is the R&D where companies like Revell skimp (hence lower costs and less accuracy) and where others like Tamiya go all out (higher costs). Sure, oil prices play a part, but oil is also at it lowest in years.

And trust me, I have quite an expensive and extensive education in economics, so I don't need you to go into it.

[Rex]

Somewhere, and I don't remember exactly where, there is a drawing of a cracking tower that backs up what Jim just said.

Basically, it illustrates that polystyrene is practically a free by-product of the fuel oil/gasoline process. Sure, you have to pay for it, but, that is only because someone figured out how to create a market for it.

No one is drilling down to "get more fossil fuel to make plastic models and spoons with"

[TaiidanTomcat]

If what we are hearing about Airfix sales is true, it may well have started already, after all, how many kids that build plastic models do you know ?.

how many kids that don't build plastic models are doing so because of prohibitive cost?? Or are there other factors beyond the price of kits?

I could take your argument and apply it to anything. "kits today are too hard to build, after all, how many kids that build plastic models do you know?"

Legos aren't cheap but are vastly popular, its not a cost issue.

That retails for $45

Edited March 24, 2016 by TaiidanTomcat

[jinmmydel]

It's a very insignificant cost for sure in the grand scheme of the other inputs to production. It's not what's driving kit prices up. It's minimal.

And I completely agree with you, Rex...which I was trying to hit at in my first post. Their are kits all over the price spectrum, so if you're priced out of the hobby it's you're own doing. Heck, I would love to tow around town to the grocery and dropping my kids off at school in a Lamborghini but I can't afford that. I still need a car, something a little more realistic for my bank account will have to do. Sure, you may love 1/32 builds with hundreds of $$ in aftermarket, but the reality is not all can afford it. There are kits that most can afford though...but hey it's human nature, you want to build what you want to build.

[Don]

Bottom line this hobby doesn't have to be expensive to be enjoyed nor do you have to buy Tamiya or Hasegawa kits or drop $100's on aftermarket materials to get accuracy. As I wrote earlier Revell is making a very good market for itself in 1/32 with their latest WWII subjects, particularly the German fighters and bombers. Cheap, awesome fit, well detailed, and considered by many to be very accurate (in the case of the late 109's the most accurate). Sure they don't have all the bells and whistles of some of the more expensive brands. But the modeler has to ask themselves if that Eduard 109 with the engine and PE is worth double the cost of the Revell kit (having both kits I'd say it isn't <_<). Its a choice. Its easy to get caught up in the "gotta have all the resin and PE" trap but you don't have to have it and as this thread illustrates some modelers are moving away from all the AM stuff, myself included.

But its a great time to be a modeler with all the choices we have open to us!

[Rex]

I think my comments might not be valid in "today's modeling world"

I mean, what am I supposed to say? "my 10 Fujimi Intruders, 27 Hasegawa Phantoms, 27 Fujimi Phantoms, 18 Fujimi Skyhawks, and 15 Airfix Skyhawks cost too much to buy, and the quality is so low that the aftermarket parts are killing my budget"

I didn't type this to brag,,,,,,I am just saying if you own kits in a stash that aren't built yet, you must be able to afford to buy the kits. And in addition, if you can type about it on a forum, you have utilities that work, and some sort of PC.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Rex

[TaiidanTomcat]

Bottom line this hobby doesn't have to be expensive to be enjoyed nor do you have to buy Tamiya or Hasegawa kits or drop $100's on aftermarket materials to get accuracy. As I wrote earlier Revell is making a very good market for itself in 1/32 with their latest WWII subjects, particularly the German fighters and bombers. Cheap, awesome fit, well detailed, and considered by many to be very accurate (in the case of the late 109's the most accurate). Sure they don't have all the bells and whistles of some of the more expensive brands. But the modeler has to ask themselves if that Eduard 109 with the engine and PE is worth double the cost of the Revell kit (having both kits I'd say it isn't <_</>). Its a choice. Its easy to get caught up in the "gotta have all the resin and PE" trap but you don't have to have it and as this thread illustrates some modelers are moving away from all the AM stuff, myself included.

But its a great time to be a modeler with all the choices we have open to us!

:cheers:/>

It's crazy how cheap that 1/32 ju-88 is. I've thought about snagging it just based on the price! No idea where I would put it though!!