11bee Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) While browsing on a really nice site, I came across some pictures of a very late war (late 72, early 73) US Army Huey. I can't figure out how to post the pics, but it's in the album here: http://www.centaursinvietnam.org/PhotoAlbums/iPhotoHarrisonBrian.html Later version Huey with windowless jump doors (I always thought these were introduced post-war), toilet bowl, early version engine shields and on a few, it looks like the toilet bowl, top of the tail boom and forward section of the vertical stabilizer are painted black (or another dark color). I've seen late war Cobras with black trim in those areas, always thought it was just custom paintwork. Now I'm wondering if it was part of the anti-MANPADS updates that were applied to US helos once SAM-7's started showing up in large numbers. This unit (Fox Troop, 4th Cav) was one of the last US Army aviation units in Vietnam. Doesn't seem to be much out there for pictures, almost seems like by that time, the press didn't really care that US troops were still fighting over there. They had some really unique helos, including this oddity: If we ever get that new 1/35 Huey, I'd love to take a shot at building one from this outfit. If anyone else has some pics of late-war Army helos, please feel free to post. Edited April 9, 2016 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Hajo L. Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Huey? Loach! HAJO Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ziggyfoos Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 Doesn't seem to be much out there for pictures, almost seems like by that time, the press didn't really care that US troops were still fighting over there. 99+% of aircraft photos I've seen from Vietnam are from the guys themselves with their new own cameras rather than the press anyway! Can't beat personal photos. Someone out there has the ones you seek. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 9, 2016 Author Share Posted April 9, 2016 Huey? Loach! HAJO Yes, I know. I was just using the pic of that very unusual Loach to illustrate that there were some very interesting helos kicking around Vietnam at the end of the US involvement. I can't figure out how to post a pic of that Huey. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 9, 2016 Share Posted April 9, 2016 (edited) Wow, those are beautiful. Have anyone else noticed the paint on that loach? Looks like carc to me. Its very dark. Hope to have a new tool huey soon. This will be a good seller. Please, make our dream come true. We all are sick and tired of all those Italeri and Dragon long body hueys. Rod. Edited April 9, 2016 by salvador001 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 11, 2016 Share Posted April 11, 2016 Wow, those are beautiful. Have anyone else noticed the paint on that loach? Looks like carc to me. Its very dark. Rod. At that date, CARC paint did not exist... John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 At that date, CARC paint did not exist... John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) But this was also around the time that we started seeing a dark green "pre-carc" paint. The Loach above is a good example. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) I believe this is a former VNAF Huey, if you look closely, this is not olive drab paint, its more darker, and as John said, it may be an early version of aircraft green FS34031. Oh, and it has a black rotor but still has gray interior. Photo was taken in the mid 70s. What do you think? Rod. Edited April 12, 2016 by salvador001 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 12, 2016 Author Share Posted April 12, 2016 Great picture Rod! I always thought the black rotor mast came at the same time as the nvg cockpit. Quite interesting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 Great picture Rod! I always thought the black rotor mast came at the same time as the nvg cockpit. Quite interesting. Yup, i thought that too John. The guy says the photo was taken after the fall of saigon. Ray, can you help us? Rod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 12, 2016 Share Posted April 12, 2016 But this was also around the time that we started seeing a dark green "pre-carc" paint. The Loach above is a good example. We discussed this ad nauseam in 2013 on this forum. There was a late-RVN period darker "aircraft green" which was used at least into the early 90s, overlapping the use of 34031 and CARC. The MIL standard for that was MIL-L-46159, first published 13 JAN 73 but used before that date. It's highly likely that there were other dark paints or paint mixes used in the late RVN period which are "unofficial". Some of those may have been IR-suppressing mixes. The MIL-L-46159 aircraft green paint does not conform to FS595 and was not the same paint as the FS34031 paint, nor was it CARC. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 13, 2016 Author Share Posted April 13, 2016 We discussed this ad nauseam in 2013 on this forum. There was a late-RVN period darker "aircraft green" which was used at least into the early 90s, overlapping the use of 34031 and CARC. The MIL standard for that was MIL-L-46159, first published 13 JAN 73 but used before that date. It's highly likely that there were other dark paints or paint mixes used in the late RVN period which are "unofficial". Some of those may have been IR-suppressing mixes. The MIL-L-46159 aircraft green paint does not conform to FS595 and was not the same paint as the FS34031 paint, nor was it CARC. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Probably did but the ARC search function sucks. I do recall the discussion, just none of the specifics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Yup, i thought that too John. The guy says the photo was taken after the fall of saigon. Ray, can you help us? Rod. Rod, I'm deferring to John Hairell on this one. I recall the discussion from a while back and as you can see John can quote MIL specs. Never question a man who quotes MIL specs! Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 Lets say it was a dark olive or some paint mix. I know its definitly not carc, but could be another one as John said. Thanks. Rod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tank Posted April 13, 2016 Share Posted April 13, 2016 We discussed this ad nauseam in 2013 on this forum. There was a late-RVN period darker "aircraft green" which was used at least into the early 90s, overlapping the use of 34031 and CARC. The MIL standard for that was MIL-L-46159, first published 13 JAN 73 but used before that date. It's highly likely that there were other dark paints or paint mixes used in the late RVN period which are "unofficial". Some of those may have been IR-suppressing mixes. The MIL-L-46159 aircraft green paint does not conform to FS595 and was not the same paint as the FS34031 paint, nor was it CARC. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Like this one? Link Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 Rod, I'm deferring to John Hairell on this one. I recall the discussion from a while back and as you can see John can quote MIL specs. Never question a man who quotes MIL specs! Ray That should be, "Never trust a man who quotes MIL specs..." The problem with specs, TMs, and other documentation is that it shows the intent but it doesn't prove what was actually done out in the field. A lot of times these documents have errors in them, and many times they are outdated by the time they are officially published. They need to be evaluated like any other source of information. Quote: "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted April 16, 2016 Author Share Posted April 16, 2016 That should be, "Never trust a man who quotes MIL specs..." The problem with specs, TMs, and other documentation is that it shows the intent but it doesn't prove what was actually done out in the field. A lot of times these documents have errors in them, and many times they are outdated by the time they are officially published. They need to be evaluated like any other source of information. Quote: "Believe only half of what you see and nothing that you hear." John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) John, any idea when they started painting the rotor mast black (as shown in Rod's pic above)? Haven't seen any pics of US Army Hueys in Vietnam with the black mast, so I'm assuming it came along post-US withdrawal. Always thought that was a much later change. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 John, any idea when they started painting the rotor mast black (as shown in Rod's pic above)? Haven't seen any pics of US Army Hueys in Vietnam with the black mast, so I'm assuming it came along post-US withdrawal. Always thought that was a much later change. Don't know and my references are not handy. Has to be late VN era because there are photos of VNAF UH-1Hs with the black rotor mast. Whether this was done on US-owned UH-1s is the question. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Don't know and my references are not handy. Has to be late VN era because there are photos of VNAF UH-1Hs with the black rotor mast. Whether this was done on US-owned UH-1s is the question. John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) The painting of US rotor masts in all black seems to correspond very closely with the introduction of NVG mods to the fleet. I can tell you I don't know of a verifiable pre-80 US bird with a black rotor mast, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. The rotor mast and the rotorhead were painted black on all the latest UH-1s in the Army fleet. I have a photo somewhere of a row of Hueys showing some with gray and some with black rotorheads. I'll put some shots up of dated photos to show what i mean later. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AH6C-SIP Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Here are a couple of shots taken during Reforger 1978. I was with D Troop 3/8 Cav. These S Mods are some of the first deployed in Germany. Yes, the 11th and 2nd ACR's had there Q models, but what I wanted to show was the OD color under the TR cover that has been removed. Also the color of the mast, PC links, and flexure plate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 (edited) Like Ray said, I believe that black rotors were introduced in the mid 80s when the NVGs started to pop out. Ive seen some photos of early 80s army UH-1Hs still with OD paint and gray interior and rotors. Other thing ive notice is that the tail rotor blades were kept in OD paint until modern days, but without the yellow tip. Here in El Salvador, we have a UH-1M with a black mast and hub, an all black blade and the other blade black in the lower surface and OD on the upper surface with the yellow tip. Our H models tail rotors have a mix of all OD, all black, and white with black stripes tail rotor blades. Main rotors are all black for all of them. We should open a thread with the Huey paint configurations both internally and externally, including major components. Rod. Edited April 18, 2016 by salvador001 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Chief Snake Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 In the book "Vietnam-The Helicopter War" by Phillip Chinnery a photograph on page 178 shows a line of VNAF UH-1's on a ramp at Cubi Point Naval Air Station in the Philippines. The picture is dated June 1975. It seems the VNAF could paint what they wanted any color they wanted. Of 11 aircraft pictured, 5 have black rotor/mast combinations. Chris M Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 These are dated Army Aviation Test Board photos from the USAAM archives. Not that these "prove" anything, but they do show the progression. Ray UH-1D Bearcat 13 Feb 7, 1976: Gray rotorhead and bare metal mast Flatiron UH-1H, 1982: black rotorhead and bare metal mast UH-1H May 17, 1988 all black mast and rotorhead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 (edited) Great pics Ray. I really dig the flat iron huey, note the blades are OD? She has the wire strike blades, was that the first hueys to have the WSPS installed? Oh, and check the blackhawk style strobe light in the belly, now thats awesome. The CARC bird is simply beautiful. Rod. Edited April 18, 2016 by salvador001 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rotorwash Posted April 18, 2016 Share Posted April 18, 2016 Great pics Ray. I really dig the flat iron huey, note the blades are OD? She has the wire strike blades, was that the first hueys to have the WSPS installed? Oh, and check the blackhawk style strobe light in the belly, now thats awesome. The CARC bird is simply beautiful. Rod. Rod, Yes, the Flatiron bird has just received one of the first WSP kits. So the image helps data that mod as well. Ray Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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