Kitty Hawk's upcoming 48th Scale Su-22M-3 & M-4

[Laurent]

they wanted inputs from those CAD's???

they're not very "rivet counters" friendly images to make our minds... no surfaces details... lack of contrast (a little)

i'd love to see more, with closed canopy, and without ordinances... front view, top and bottom view... a make you "zooms" on landing gears and pits.

If they really want CAD model to be reviewed, they should provide a unshaded wireframe renderings with a blank background. This allows to do overlays. Example of MiG-25 drawings vs a MiG-25 CAD model cross-section.

[ya-gabor]

One part which is most visible of the cockpit is the headrest of the ejection seat. The CAD image shows problems with details of the headrest:

- The area around the PPK units is completely wrong.

- The front padding of the headrest is wrong shape.

- The seat arming strand cover is missing.

- The proportions of the stabilizing guns housing are wrong.

- That cylindrical “thing” on the back of the seat (visible on the CAD so visible on the final kit too) should not be there. It was on experimental seats only!

- The chaff/flare dispensers on the bottom of the tail are missing. They were a standard fit to Russian airframes.

- The pylon for the KKR container has some problems.

- Based on the CAD this is only the KKR-1 container while the Russians in most cases used the later version which is different.

One thing is (but it is only my idea) concerning the swing-wing. It is sad that kit manufacturers want to give you the option of a REAL swing-wing kit, I would say making the scale kit into a TOY. By offering the choice of moving outer wings they have to make place for it inside the unmoving part of the wing. Then there is minimal thickness of plastic, all this results in over thick wing root. Just see the KP / OEZ Su-17 kits. A simple solution would be to do separate outer and inner wings, one for open and one for closed swing-wing version. Yes it would add to costs in tooling and more parts on sprues (big parts they are too) but would result in authentic wings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This would be far more important than to have a fully detailed engine!!!!! Now many times you have a fully detailed engine next to the kit??? Compared to this every kit has its wings. :D So what is more important???

Having seen (and sold it as quickly as possible) the Kitty Hawk MiG-25 I don’t think this manufacture will be the one who goes this way. I have serious doubts about Kitty Hawn kits. But you never know what comes in the end. . .

Best regards

Gabor

Edited April 20, 2016 by ya-gabor

[harvy5]

It's another "Chinese kit", mixed all version Su-17M-3,4 and UM-3.

And as wrote ya-gabor. The chaff / flare dispensers if they were only two pairs,they were in the rear fuselage.In Afghanistan were almost 4pcs under nozzle.

KKR-1 well is used by all users but pylon is short.

[jimm33]

I just wish KH would produce what they have already announced - First! Does anyone know if they have decided to totally redo the Banshee kits??? Or not? Just curious!

Jim

[sharkmouth]

Does anyone know if they have decided to totally redo the Banshee kits??? Or not?

Jim, the person who knows (Kagnew) isn't speaking, He is aware of the thread though.

Regards,

[The Scaremonger]

why does no one care if the kit can actually be built.

Jim, I take your point in this argument. While I do care whether or not the kit is buildable, I also care about accuracy. However, I sure don't agree on taking the blame on the manufacturer just because, as if one were used to doing it.

Let's say Kitty Hawk was the first manufacturer to release a greatly updated representation of a MiG-25 in 1/48th scale, compared to the Revell kit, which was for a long spell the only game in town for those who build in the quarter scale.

To me the kit came as a blessing; put into context, the Kitty Hawk kit looked a hell of a lot better than the Revell one. Of course, not only the Kitty Hawk kit had its shape issues, but also it was a bit difficult to build as well.

And to top that off, we had yet another manufacturer promising us the releasement of the "ultimate" Foxbat in 1/48th scale in the near future...

Personally, I take it that no kit is perfect, too; therefore, I for one don't think that the AMK kit is gonna be perfect either; it did serve me enough to have had Cold Ward Studio's announcement of a correction nose for the Kitty Hawk kit, tho.

In any case, I congratulate Kitty Hawk for making plans to release a Fitter family which is certainly going to be better than the OEZ/Kopro/Eduard offering. Surely still, you can bet that soon after other manufacturers will release their offerings as well, so what are we to do, get crazy about picking each one after having gotten the one which was released first?

That's not a sane thing to do; I'd rather try and get aftermarkets available in order to correct the kit I already purchased.

[dehowie]

Good post Scaremonger..

Over half the noise generated on the KH Mig-25 was from people who apparently had never built anything other than Tamiya Corsairs and P-47's.

Jumping in without thinking committing CA to plastic without any thought expecting another Tamiya Corsair.

Was the kit easy to build? No.

Was it well engineered? No

Could you get a nice looking model from the kit? Hell yes.

It took some thinking and planning ie using spacers and reinforcements etc but if you thought about it then it goes together ok.

What's it's hilarious is to see the very same guys condemning KH are those raining praise upon AMK like they are the new leaders in kit tech.

Yet the overly deep panel lines, poor cockpit detail on the Mig-31, sink marks and ejector pins are ignored.

Nice kit it sure is but it's certainly not what these guys are putting it up as the new leader as its still a long way to go to be the best. However they are off to a very good start and love the interaction AMK aphave with the community.

Maybe KH is taking a leaf from the AMK book which would be a good step in the right direction.

But that won't stop the guys who can't build something that can't have the glue thrown in the box and shaken up to get a result.

[harvy5]

Jim, I take your point in this argument. While I do care whether or not the kit is buildable, I also care about accuracy. However, I sure don't agree on taking the blame on the manufacturer just because, as if one were used to doing it.

Let's say Kitty Hawk was the first manufacturer to release a greatly updated representation of a MiG-25 in 1/48th scale, compared to the Revell kit, which was for a long spell the only game in town for those who build in the quarter scale.

To me the kit came as a blessing; put into context, the Kitty Hawk kit looked a hell of a lot better than the Revell one. Of course, not only the Kitty Hawk kit had its shape issues, but also it was a bit difficult to build as well.

And to top that off, we had yet another manufacturer promising us the releasement of the "ultimate" Foxbat in 1/48th scale in the near future...

Personally, I take it that no kit is perfect, too; therefore, I for one don't think that the AMK kit is gonna be perfect either; it did serve me enough to have had Cold Ward Studio's announcement of a correction nose for the Kitty Hawk kit, tho.

In any case, I congratulate Kitty Hawk for making plans to release a Fitter family which is certainly going to be better than the OEZ/Kopro/Eduard offering. Surely still, you can bet that soon after other manufacturers will release their offerings as well, so what are we to do, get crazy about picking each one after having gotten the one which was released first?

That's not a sane thing to do; I'd rather try and get aftermarkets available in order to correct the kit I already purchased.

Problem with KH, HB,Trumpeter are significant shape mistakes.Just a few TRU 1/32 Su-25.Mig-21,Mig-23,1/48 Mig-21 family,Mig-23 family.HB 1/48 P-61,KH Mig-25 and these are only some of which I had built over the past year. :bandhead2:

[ijozic]

And to top that off, we had yet another manufacturer promising us the releasement of the "ultimate" Foxbat in 1/48th scale in the near future...

Personally, I take it that no kit is perfect, too; therefore, I for one don't think that the AMK kit is gonna be perfect either; it did serve me enough to have had Cold Ward Studio's announcement of a correction nose for the Kitty Hawk kit, tho.

In any case, I congratulate Kitty Hawk for making plans to release a Fitter family which is certainly going to be better than the OEZ/Kopro/Eduard offering. Surely still, you can bet that soon after other manufacturers will release their offerings as well, so what are we to do, get crazy about picking each one after having gotten the one which was released first? That's not a sane thing to do; I'd rather try and get aftermarkets available in order to correct the kit I already purchased.

There's actually two companies making new Foxbats (although ICM only announced the RB variant so far).

Regarding your dilemma, I think it's better to have multiple options than only one. You can also wait till all incoming kits are available and choose the best one or you can sell your initial offering. I don't see the problem there.

For instance, the OEZ Su-22 offering has been in the market for years under several brands and I actually have one, but I'm glad to see new options incoming and if one of them offers a significant enough improvement, I'd certainly invest in it and sell the Kopro one (for which I also have an aftermarket cockpit). I also bought the KH MiG-25 kit, but sold it after seeing the impressive AMK MiG-31 kit and them announcing a MiG-25. The KH kit was rather complex to build and needed some aftermarket parts which were not available. If there were and I invested into a cockpit, intake and exhausts sets, I might have kept it, but otherwise, good riddance even though I lost money on it.

BTW, dehowie, no offense please, but what's your beef with the AMK MiG-31 kit that you bash it in multiple threads? I don't have it yet as I'm only getting the B/BS one, but from what I've seen in the reviews, it seems most impressive, even if there's an occasional ejector pin mark and such. I'd also be curious to hear which kits offer so superior cockpits that this one has 'poor cockpit detail'?

Edited April 21, 2016 by ijozic

[Aigore]

There are no perfect models...they aren't copies of reality but represtations scaled down.

Some manufacturers try to make them as good as possible and even asks frankly at forums and face book pages the public, the guys who worked on the subjects or are otherwise cognate about them, how to make their product better. The manufacturers that do this and listens to the end users do produce spectacular kits,great accuracy and they build up well too.

Then you have the manufacturers who doesn't listen or seek advice and who doesn't go that extra distance to make their product as good as it could possibly be. I frankly feel affronted by them since they could do it right but CHOOSE not to, that's an active choice on their part. Hobby Boss COULD have friggin checked the measurements on their J29 and not make it 1/53rd scale instead of 1/48th, Kitty Hawk COULD have checked with someone who knew and made decals for the Gripen C. Etc there are numerous sad mistakes like that.

They have shown that they don't care for accuracy, they don't value input from those who know, they only care about selling and making money....and they are cheeky and bloody arrogant! That makes me think they deserve all the nit-picking and criticism they get!

[The Scaremonger]

Problem with KH, HB,Trumpeter are significant shape mistakes.

I concur, halfways. But then again, could you name any other manufacturer who is able to claim to have turned out a 99% accurate kit in every aspect, at least in 1/48th scale? Point is moot, Harvy.

There's actually two companies making new Foxbats (although ICM only announced the RB variant so far).

Yes, I meant that my interest goes only in the interceptor version of the Foxbat.

Regarding your dilemma, I think it's better to have multiple options than only one. You can also wait till all incoming kits are available and choose the best one or you can sell your initial offering. I don't see the problem there.

I wish I could! But how many lives would one have to have in order for that being possible...? Say I'm a B-29 freak who only builds in the quarter scale. See the dilemma? Consider it's just a handful of kits in the quarter scale which one can rejoice in the bliss of having many options to choose from.

Again; I'd rather take the plunge and try to build any kit I already purchased.

For instance, the OEZ Su-22 offering has been in the market for years under several brands and I actually have one, but I'm glad to see new options incoming and if one of them offers a significant enough improvement, I'd certainly invest in it and sell the Kopro one (for which I also have an aftermarket cockpit). I also bought the KH MiG-25 kit, but sold it after seeing the impressive AMK MiG-31 kit and them announcing a MiG-25. The KH kit was rather complex to build and needed some aftermarket parts which were not available. If there were and I invested into a cockpit, intake and exhausts sets, I might have kept it, but otherwise, good riddance even though I lost money on it.

Excuse me; with all due respect, how old are you? The OEZ kit is still the only game in town in 1/48th scale, isn't it? For how long has it been available to the modellers in its many reissues/reboxings, like 30 years now? More...?

I wish it were that simple to me too: "KH has turned out an inaccurate kit, but wait! AMK is promising the mother of all Foxbats soon...! Okay, the KH goes to auction on ebay."

How long ever since the KH Foxbat was released until you learnt that AMK was going to release a "better" kit? How long ever since the KH Foxbat was released that Cold War Studio (or Fru-Fru) announced their resin improvements for the kit?

You see what my point is? What if the AMK kit is inaccurate as well? I haven't got the faintest thing against AMK, but for instance, their Kfir kit didn't sell nearly as well as the other manufacturer's.

Some manufacturers try to make them as good as possible and even asks frankly at forums and face book pages the public, the guys who worked on the subjects or are otherwise cognate about them, how to make their product better. The manufacturers that do this and listens to the end users do produce spectacular kits,great accuracy and they build up well too.

Agreed, but it wasn't until very recently that manufacturers seem to have started to feed on modellers (or specialised forum members which have knowledge on certain aircraft) in order to test the waters regarding our interest in the development of an accurate kit releasement in the near future...

Once again; would you afford to wait a lifetime in the hope for a substitute B-17 kit in 1/48th scale if you already had the Revellogram one sitting in the stash...? ;)

[Laurent]

Agreed, but it wasn't until very recently that manufacturers seem to have started to feed on modellers (or specialised forum members which have knowledge on certain aircraft) in order to test the waters regarding our interest in the development of an accurate kit releasement in the near future...

Manufacturers request feedback for two reasons IMHO:

- to "hire" contributors

- to say they care

The problem is do they really care or it's just a communication thing ? 90% of the time it's just a communication thing IMHO. It has been going on from several years now. Few producers have backed up the words with actual actions

[The Scaremonger]

The problem is do they really care or it's just a communication thing ? 90% of the time it's just a communication thing IMHO.

Well, that's the rub, right there Laurent. It's kind of foul play to me whenever a new kit is released on the market than modellers get all biased by yet another manufacturer on a forum which announces a "much more accurate rendering of the very same kit (in the same scale) that has just been released" to be in the making.

All the more so when their promised kit is nothing but a promise which is not even captured on a CAD project!

[The Scaremonger]

The first release of a new manufacturer is never a sales success.

I don't quite agree with that statement, Pacheco. There's not always like that if you think of Aviation Art's first kit, the Su-33, even when it was released by Kinetic, instead.

[MoFo]

SMDH.

Edited April 22, 2016 by MoFo

[FAR148]

If Kitty Hawk is truly seeking input on their kits. Have their CAD guys(or whoever is responsible for part break up/layout) build one of kitty hawk models. Than have them build a kit from AMK, Tamiya, AFV club, Hasegawa, Revell, Zoukei-Mura, GWH... Heck, it does not matter who makes it, just any well fitting/thought out kit. Have them study what work well for other kits and what does not. Look at part break up as well as how parts fit together. Have them study how the model comes together. Where are the seams and joints? Are they noticeable? Are they easily fix? And were there even necessary? Then try to incorporate what works well into kitty hawk new kits.

That's my input,

Steven L

Edited April 22, 2016 by FAR148

[Skull Leader]

I swear, you guys would b!tch about a cure for cancer.

[Aigore]

I swear, you guys would b!tch about a cure for cancer.

LOL 😂

[Laurent]

I don't quite agree with that statement, Pacheco. There's not always like that if you think of Aviation Art's first kit, the Su-33, even when it was released by Kinetic, instead.

For me a sales success is when break even threshold is exceeded rapidly. Is it the case with the Su-33 ?

[ijozic]

Excuse me; with all due respect, how old are you? The OEZ kit is still the only game in town in 1/48th scale, isn't it? For how long has it been available to the modellers in its many reissues/reboxings, like 30 years now? More...?

I wish it were that simple to me too: "KH has turned out an inaccurate kit, but wait! AMK is promising the mother of all Foxbats soon...! Okay, the KH goes to auction on ebay."

How long ever since the KH Foxbat was released until you learnt that AMK was going to release a "better" kit? How long ever since the KH Foxbat was released that Cold War Studio (or Fru-Fru) announced their resin improvements for the kit?

You see what my point is? What if the AMK kit is inaccurate as well?

How old am I? I don't see what you're getting at here and which part of my text it refers to? I'm old enough not to have enough time to work on my stash, but when I do find time, I prefer to work on a detailed kit which doesn't need aftermarket sets and surgery and a lot of filler. If you have a problem with that, well, that's your problem.

Regarding the KH kit, I've gotten it as soon as it was released and had it for a year or so and even though many aftermarket sets were announced at the release, none came to fruition yet. So, I saw it as a frustrating dead-end and when AMK announced theirs, it was a sure bet it's going to be a better engineered kit and they won't put the wrong intakes and exhausts on it (just check their MiG-31 kit), etc. so selling the KH ASAP was the best option for me. If it had no competition, sure, I'd have build it eventually with additional cockpit and exhaust sets, but with AMK and ICM (they made some pretty cool Ju-88 kits recently) in the game, forget about it.. I hope KH makes a better kit this time, even though I'm personally inkling towards the HB kit (if it turns out as decent as their Yak-38 or the recent J-11).

Edited April 22, 2016 by ijozic

[jgrease]

I swear, you guys would b!tch about a cure for cancer.

+100

John

[The Scaremonger]

For me a sales success is when break even threshold is exceeded rapidly. Is it the case with the Su-33 ?

I think it is. Examples don't abound, of course, but another example which comes to mind right now is GWH's MiG-29s.

How old am I? I don't see what you're getting at here and which part of my text it refers to? I'm old enough not to have enough time to work on my stash, but when I do find time, I prefer to work on a detailed kit which doesn't need aftermarket sets and surgery and a lot of filler.

My point is that there will be occasions when a kit is just going to be the only game in town which you've had for decades; could you afford to wait in the hope that an updated, retooled or better option appears if you wanted to build an specific subject?

I'm pulling 30, so no dice to wait in the hope that a manufacturer announces an injection-moulded kit of an, say... Avro Vulcan in 1/48th scale (even when Airfix teased us all with a fake proposition back in the day at Telford).

If you have a problem with that, well, that's your problem.

No problem at all; just expressing my point of view.

Regarding the KH kit, I've gotten it as soon as it was released and had it for a year or so and even though many aftermarket sets were announced at the release, none came to fruition yet. So, I saw it as a frustrating dead-end and when AMK announced theirs, it was a sure bet it's going to be a better engineered kit and they won't put the wrong intakes and exhausts on it (just check their MiG-31 kit), etc. so selling the KH ASAP was the best option for me.

Okay; fair enough, but what if AMK or ICM suddenly goes bankruptcy or the releasement got delayed indefinitely...? You seem to deposit a hell of a lot of faith in what a manufacturer is promising, be it AMK or ICM. Suppose that something happened, you might have to purchase the KH Foxbat kit once again?

If it had no competition, sure, I'd have build it eventually with additional cockpit and exhaust sets, but with AMK and ICM (they made some pretty cool Ju-88 kits recently) in the game, forget about it...

Your "competition" for a Foxbat kit in the quarter scale is nothing but a promise right now.

[ya-gabor]

What was the original title of the topic???

Anyone with constructive suggestions???

Best regards

Gabor

[sharkmouth]

What was the original title of the topic???

Anyone with constructive suggestions???

Thank you Gabor... I was trying to come up with a nice way to state it as it is frustrating how tangential topics make others forget the original intent of the post.

Regards,

[Drifterdon]

Thank you Gabor... I was trying to come up with a nice way to state it as it is frustrating how tangential topics make others forget the original intent of the post.

Regards,

Or cause them to get shut down all together!