Rob_Haelterman Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Hi guys, after digesting 20+ books on the P-51 I thought I had a clear understanding of how the design evolved, but I am encountering far too many contradictions to be entirely sure, especially with the books that have appeared recently. So, I put it before you to get some things settled once and for all. 1. Some of my sources claim that the 3 ID lights under the starboard wing appeared with the P-51/Mustang IA, others say it was only with the A-36. Which is correct ? 2. I noticed that sometimes the antenna wire goes directly to the spine, and sometimes to the top of the mast. What's the rationale behind this and which subtypes could have what arrangement ? (I am not speaking of the MH equipped P-51Bs.) 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofiited with a 6-gun wing. Is teher any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? The latter would seem odd, given the difefernt wing planforms. 4. Almost none of my sources mention the change at the wingroot from P-51B to D. I am quite sure the consensus is that the wheels and leading edge extension on the D were larger. This is the case, right ? 5. Some sources mention different types of spinners used on the P-51D. Can anybody tell me more ? 6. Some sources mention 3 types of canopy, while I am only aware of 2 (regular and Dallas). What was the 3rd type ? Apologies, but I do hope I can get to the bottom of this, thanks to you all. Cheers Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martin_sam_2000 Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Hi guys, after digesting 20+ books on the P-51 I thought I had a clear understanding of how the design evolved, but I am encountering far too many contradictions to be entirely sure, especially with the books that have appeared recently. So, I put it before you to get some things settled once and for all. Apologies, but I do hope I can get to the bottom of this, thanks to you all. Cheers Rob I will answer what I can with the info (I think) I know. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofiited with a 6-gun wing. Is teher any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? The latter would seem odd, given the difefernt wing planforms. I understand that some of the later blocks that were built in Dallas were fitted with "D" wings since the "D" was built built at ingelwood at the same time 4. Almost none of my sources mention the change at the wingroot from P-51B to D. I am quite sure the consensus is that the wheels and leading edge extension on the D were larger. This is the case, right ? the wing root was changed slightly with the "D" wing and the leading edge kink was changed between wings 5. Some sources mention different types of spinners used on the P-51D. Can anybody tell me more ? Some "D" were fitted with the Aeroproducts propeller which had a lsightly different shape and a slightly different hub. These were callled P-51K's but in the feild sometimes the HS prop was fitted to the "K" and the Aeroproducts one fitted to "D". Kinda like the Spitfire Mk IX and XVI issue..without checking the serial numbers it is hard to differentiate between the two versions using external differences. 6. Some sources mention 3 types of canopy, while I am only aware of 2 (regular and Dallas). What was the 3rd type as far as I know the "D" only had the two types..the "H" did have a slightly different shape form the "D"/"K" so maybe thats the confusion. hope this helps, Sean Edited April 28, 2016 by martin_sam_2000 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 2. I noticed that sometimes the antenna wire goes directly to the spine, and sometimes to the top of the mast. What's the rationale behind this and which subtypes could have what arrangement ? (I am not speaking of the MH equipped P-51Bs.) What types of Mustangs are you talking about? P-51B/C/D/K had a VHF comm radio that used either an antenna contained inside the mast, or in the case of some B/C with Malcom hoods, a whip antenna. The wire on those types that went from the tail to the canopy was the homing beacon antenna, and was often not fitted on overseas serving aircraft, depending on the theatre you're talking about. 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofiited with a 6-gun wing. Is teher any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? The latter would seem odd, given the difefernt wing planforms. I've never seen a single photograph of a B/C with a six gun wing. Not one. If you have, I'd love to see it. 4. Almost none of my sources mention the change at the wingroot from P-51B to D. I am quite sure the consensus is that the wheels and leading edge extension on the D were larger. This is the case, right ? Nope. The wheels are exactly the same. Same part numbers, same tires, same everything. 5. Some sources mention different types of spinners used on the P-51D. Can anybody tell me more ? Don't believe everything you read. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 1- Neither, it started on P-51B's. P-51's F-6A's had the lights under the forward flap of the radiator scoop and A-36's at the center of the scoop. No lights on P-51A's (except maybe for a few modified planes) or RAF Allison Mustangs. 2- Different configurations depending on the type of radio, radio compass, IFF set etc... Like Jennings said, you need to be more specific. 3- False. 4- Again Jennings is correct, the wingroot is larger on the D but wheels are the same. 5- Only two spinners, one for the P-51D (Hamilton Standard prop) and one for the P-51K (Aeroproducts prop). They have the same shape but the openings for the prop blades on the K spinner have a slightly different shape. 6- At the beginning of the P-51D production canopies were free blown, this led to varying shapes. Once they were molded the shape became standardized, mostly the well known Inglewood and Dallas canopies. The third shape you've heard about was one of the early free blown canopies seen on P-51D-5's, the profile is a continuous curve with the windshield, the highest point being at the center of the curve. The Tamiya 1/32 P-51D includes all three canopies. In reality there where more than three shapes, the free blown canopies sometimes looked quite flat and even the Inglewood and Dallas canopies seem to have evolved a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Air Force Museum A-36 as the signal lights near the starboard wingtip Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Air Force Museum A-36 as the signal lights near the starboard wingtip Yes but it is one of the worst restorations out there. It's not even a restoration, just the empty shell of an aircraft that been destroyed many times and has been rebuilt quickly (it seems) with whatever parts they could find. It is not a good source for detail information on the A-36. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 If my library wasn't in 23 2-foot high stacks on the floor, I could be more helpful. In a couple more weeks, they'll be on shelves fully sorted. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 If my library wasn't in 23 2-foot high stacks on the floor, I could be more helpful. In a couple more weeks, they'll be on shelves fully sorted. LOL! I can relate. If anyone disturbs my piling system, I'm sunk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 If my library wasn't in 23 2-foot high stacks on the floor, I could be more helpful. In a couple more weeks, they'll be on shelves fully sorted. I can also relate. My stuff will also be on new shelves within two weeks, I promised my wife ten years ago! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Slartibartfast Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 "piling system". Lulz! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KSL Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofiited with a 6-gun wing. Is teher any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? Even with 8-gun wing :rofl:/> Sergey. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Big Mac Junior is the first time I've ever seen that steel mesh material being used in the UK! I've seen it in Burma. Anyone know what that stuff was called? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmat Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 (edited) One version of Sommerfeld Mat or Tracking, I believe. See here: http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?89838-Anyone-identify-this-runway-tracking-(one-for-Bluenoser-352) Grant Edited April 29, 2016 by gmat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted April 29, 2016 Share Posted April 29, 2016 Thanks Grant! I suspect it may have been more widely used than I suspected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob_Haelterman Posted May 1, 2016 Author Share Posted May 1, 2016 Thank you all for your input. It's been very interesting reading. I've tried to summarize your info, and answer your request for more details about question 2. Cheers Rob 1. Some of my sources claim that the 3 ID lights under the starboard wing appeared with the P-51/Mustang IA, others say it was only with the A-36. Which is correct ? Answer: Neither, it started on P-51B's. P-51's F-6A's had the lights under the forward flap of the radiator scoop A-36's at the center of the scoop. No lights on P-51A's No lights on RAF Allison Mustangs. Information of lights on Allison Mustangs is based on a bad restoration of an A-36. This seems to be confirmed by this picture: http://www.avionesclasicos.com/imagenes/p51/a-36.jpg 2. I noticed that sometimes the antenna wire goes directly to the spine, and sometimes to the top of the mast. What's the rationale behind this and which subtypes could have what arrangement ? (I am not speaking of the MH equipped P-51Bs.) Answer: P-51B/C/D/K had a VHF comm radio that used an antenna contained inside the mast, if not equipped with Malcolm hood The wire on those types that went from the tail to the canopy was the homing beacon antenna, and was often not fitted on overseas serving aircraft, depending on the theatre you're talking about. >>>>>>> I didn’t know it was a homing beacon antenna. Could it fitted to all subversions (P-51, P-51A, B, …) I’ve seen it going to the top of the antenna mast or to the base of the antenna. Any reason for this ? 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofitted with a 6-gun wing. Is there any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? The latter would seem odd, given the different wing planforms. Answer: False 4. Almost none of my sources mention the change at the wingroot from P-51B to D. I am quite sure the consensus is that the wheels and leading edge extension on the D were larger. This is the case, right ? Answer: The wingroot was changed, but not because the wheels were any different. 5. Some sources mention different types of spinners used on the P-51D. Can anybody tell me more ? Answer: The only difference is because of the two prop-types and only where the prop exits the spinner. 6. Some sources mention 3 types of canopy, while I am only aware of 2 (regular and Dallas). What was the 3rd type ? Answer: There were only two types for the D, unless we count the early “free blown ones” The third shape was one of the early free blown canopies seen on P-51D-5's, the profile is a continuous curve with the windshield, the highest point being at the center of the curve. In reality there where more than three shapes, the free blown canopies sometimes looked quite flat and even the Inglewood and Dallas canopies seem to have evolved a bit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 Any insight on the reasoning for painting additional "guns" on El Malo Hombre and Big Mac? Was it disinformation or some local joke? Seems if you got close enough to see them, you were likely suffering from the reality of the 4 real guns. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted May 1, 2016 Share Posted May 1, 2016 It was quite common. Lots of pics of Corsairs in the SWPA with extras painted on. Just a morale booster. I seriously doubt the Luftwaffe or the Japanese ever saw or cared about them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeDassele Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Hi guys, after digesting 20+ books on the P-51 I thought I had a clear understanding of how the design evolved, but I am encountering far too many contradictions to be entirely sure, especially with the books that have appeared recently. So, I put it before you to get some things settled once and for all. 1. Some of my sources claim that the 3 ID lights under the starboard wing appeared with the P-51/Mustang IA, others say it was only with the A-36. Which is correct ? 2. I noticed that sometimes the antenna wire goes directly to the spine, and sometimes to the top of the mast. What's the rationale behind this and which subtypes could have what arrangement ? (I am not speaking of the MH equipped P-51Bs.) 3. One of my sources claim that some P-51B were retrofiited with a 6-gun wing. Is teher any proof, and would that be the fitting of a 3rd gun in each P-51B gunbay, or swapping the B for the D wing ? The latter would seem odd, given the difefernt wing planforms. 4. Almost none of my sources mention the change at the wingroot from P-51B to D. I am quite sure the consensus is that the wheels and leading edge extension on the D were larger. This is the case, right ? 5. Some sources mention different types of spinners used on the P-51D. Can anybody tell me more ? 6. Some sources mention 3 types of canopy, while I am only aware of 2 (regular and Dallas). What was the 3rd type ? Apologies, but I do hope I can get to the bottom of this, thanks to you all. Cheers Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeDassele Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 Just to add some perspective, let me assure you this phenomenon is not exclusive to researching aircraft. I am a woodworker and a gardener. The more you deeply explore any avocation, the inconsistencies just pile up. "Do this----no, never do this" and so on. Just gotta make your best judgment call, look for the biggest consensus and go from there. Otherwise you get paralyzed. BTW, I don't know diddly about Mustangs, which will be a good place for me to be when I build the ones in my stash :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatgonzo Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 (edited) >>>>>>> I didn’t know it was a homing beacon antenna. Could it fitted to all subversions (P-51, P-51A, B, …) I’ve seen it going to the top of the antenna mast or to the base of the antenna. Any reason for this ? It was homing beacon antenna when it was. Communication radio on other cases. You will go nowhere looking for scheme fitting the subversions. Radio equipment answered the needs of the theatre, region and task of the aircraft. All that could have change upon the time. Sometimes there was more than one configuration ready to fill the task. I can list some ten radio systems that used to be carried by P-51 right out of the hand. Possibly there could have been more, when checked. And , of course, there is no way all would fit in one frame. And, of course, they did need dedicated antenna system. And, of course, there were field modifications coming out of individual preferences or repairs. You just have to start with the one very frame and look for the answer for her. It is not impossible the next aircraft in line would have carried different wiring. Edited May 2, 2016 by greatgonzo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted May 2, 2016 Share Posted May 2, 2016 The wire antenna on P-51B/C/D/Ks was not a communication antenna. Most US (and British) tactical aircraft began using a VHF/FM set in (from distant, distant memory) 1941/42. The VHF set required a much shorter antenna, which was contained in the vertical mast, and didn't require a long wire antenna. If you see a P-51B/C/D/K with a wire strung from the tail to the cockpit area, it's for the homing beacon set, not for communications. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatgonzo Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 RAF converted to VHF in 1940. It is safe to say no fighter aircraft in the ETO had used wire antenna since. USAAF of course followed with SCR-522 VHF set. And so much for the safeness. Crates with aircraft heading for MTO had SCR-274 radio added even if the frames carried SCR-522. British IFF MkII should have been used until SCR-595 came available. Far East fighters used SCR-274 and this being HF radio required wire antenna. Merlin Mustangs included. The tail to mast wire is for HF communication set. Additional wire stretched between a tail and turtle neck could have been used by MSN-26 radio compass, but not on the planes with dedicated loop antenna . Possibly a part of Detrola assembly. As said before, next plane in the line could have a different configuration. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 Most Allison Mustangs and the early P-51B blocks had the SCR-274 command set which required both a mast and and a wire antenna. The later SCR-522 radio set only needed a mast. Allison Mustangs were sometimes retrofitted with the SCR-522 set and, as GreatGonzo explained, the SCR-274 was installed on P-51B/C's equipped with a MN-26 radio compass (CBI theater). I only disagree about the part where the planes with the MN-26 didn't use a wire when the loop antenna was mounted. The loop is the main MN-26 antenna and was always there on MN-26 equipped aircraft whether or not the accompanying wire was also mounted. P-51D/K's are the only ones to never use the SCR-274, with the exception of the last Dallas built production block (which had an ARC-3 set) they all came out of the factory with the SCR-522 and stayed that way. Knowing which specific plane we are talking about is the first step towards figuring out what exact radio configuration was in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatgonzo Posted May 3, 2016 Share Posted May 3, 2016 I only disagree about the part where the planes with the MN-26 didn't use a wire when the loop antenna was mounted. The loop is the main MN-26 antenna and was always there on MN-26 equipped aircraft whether or not the accompanying wire was also mounted. Good input. The question is what was additional wire for on the frames with no loop antenna? Like 23rd FG Birds. Detrola? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted May 4, 2016 Share Posted May 4, 2016 Good input. The question is what was additional wire for on the frames with no loop antenna? Like 23rd FG Birds. Detrola? Possibly. Do you have a photo showing what you mean? Most of the 23rd FG P-51D photos I see show both the loop antenna and the wire. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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