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Here comes Norwegian.


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Norwegian Airlines just passed a major hurdle in it's fight for additional low-cost flights between Europe and the US.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/16/business/norwegian-airline-gets-initial-approval-for-more-us-flights.html?_r=0

Major setback for the crappy legacy US Airlines and the industry unions who had hoped to snuff these guys before the even got into full operation. I'm pretty excited about this, especially since it looks like they will soon be flying 737 service between BOS and Cork, Ireland. It's estimated that they will be pricing tickets at up to 1/3rd the cost of the legacy airlines. Predictably, Delta, American and some European majors are highly irate. Still have some politicians that are in the airlines pockets and are trying to fight a rearguard action to derail this but it sounds like it's pretty much a done deal.

Hope they do well, I'll surely miss paying a premium for dirty planes, horrible food and snarky flight attendants.

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Yeah, because we all know noooooooo European airlines are run like that. As far as airline jobs go, this is undermining a lot of us in the US. Good or not for the consumer, it will have a negative effect on airline jobs here. Maybe not right away, but it will. It's not good for us.

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Yeah, because we all know noooooooo European airlines are run like that. As far as airline jobs go, this is undermining a lot of us in the US. Good or not for the consumer, it will have a negative effect on airline jobs here. Maybe not right away, but it will. It's not good for us.

Sorry to hear that. However as long as they meet safety standards, let the market determine who wins and who fails. Plus, it's only a matter of time before Emirates knocks off everyone else anyway. :)

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I think this is a good move. I don't care about American airlines at all. They suck, they charge for everything, they make the travel experience worse than not traveling at all. If I could drive to Europe, that's the way I'd go. Flying is the worst, I'd rather get clawed through both eyes by an angry polar bear than give a buck to a US airline.

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I think this is a good move. I don't care about American airlines at all. They suck, they charge for everything, they make the travel experience worse than not traveling at all. If I could drive to Europe, that's the way I'd go. Flying is the worst, I'd rather get clawed through both eyes by an angry polar bear than give a buck to a US airline.

I'm still somewhat partial to Southwest, at least the people seem like they actually enjoy their jobs and give a sh#t about the customers. I still think at some point SWA is going to start flying long-range international routes. They need to grow to survive and they've pretty much max'ed out the domestic scene. They'd give the crappy legacies and the European airlines a run for their money. I'd love to see some 787's in their colors.

American and Delta suck. Horrible customer service, miserable employees. I avoid them like the plague and hope they both go out of business tomorrow. Spirit and Frontier don't even count as airlines, they are penitentiaries on wings.

The sad thing is, I used to enjoy commercial flying at one point. Now it's nothing more than a necessary evil to get from Point A to Point B.

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When Norwegian or Emirates take over, as you say, those jobs won't go to Americans. As bad as customer service is at US based airlines, they're still a source of jobs and employment for tens of thousands of people, if not more. Norwegian and Emirates won't scoop them up. Then what? I'm curious because that doesn't seem important to you. What will we do for work?

Not that Norwegian and Emirates are a bad thing, but taking over the US market with no help from new or existing laws to protect our jobs is writing on the wall. I hope it's worth the $45 you'll save on a ticket.

Edited by jester292
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When Norwegian or Emirates take over, as you say, those jobs won't go to Americans. As bad as customer service is at US based airlines, they're still a source of jobs and employment for tens of thousands of people, if not more. Norwegian and Emirates won't scoop them up. Then what? I'm curious because that doesn't seem important to you. What will we do for work?

Not that Norwegian and Emirates are a bad thing, but taking over the US market with no help from new or existing laws to protect our jobs is writing on the wall. I hope it's worth the $45 you'll save on a ticket.

What will you do for work? I don't want to sound cold but that's your problem. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to work for a particular employer. Maybe go to work for Emirates or Singapore and get a feel what the words "Customer Service" mean? This is a free market society, consumers choose who they will spend their money on based on the value of the product. My personal opinion is that the US legacy airlines offer zero value and I will avoid them unless there are absolutely no other options available.

Pretty sure I'll be saving much more than $45 on a ticket as well. Regardless, if I was only saving $1.50 I'd still opt for what gives me the best value and unfortunately, it's not any of the US legacies. Hell, I'd spend considerably more for a ticket if I thought the value was there. Like I said on a previous post, I could surely get a cheaper domestic flight on Spirit but no amount of savings is worth it.

It's still early in the AM and maybe my coffee hasn't kicked yet but it almost sounds like you are making the argument - "We know we suck but you should blindly support us because we are a domestic industry". Surely I am missing something. Sounds like something out of Ford or GM back in the 80's.

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That is why I've chosen to stay in the charter world for now. The majors are getting squeezed from both ends (domestic/international). Obviously due to cabatoge, foreign airlines won't be flying domestic routes, but I do see them continuing to encroach on the international routes. What most people forget is those "really nice" foreign airlines are so nice because they're propped up by their governments. The majors here don't have that luxury. Domestically you'll see companies like Southwest and Spirit continue to eat away at the majors customer base. Honestly, the US market has spoken and created what we see now. When you book your tickets, I can almost guarantee you like at price first and foremost. We've chosen crappy service for cheap over nice service for more $.

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I would consider Southwest to be a "major" in the US now. Spirit is barely a blip on the radar by comparison to WN.

Southwest is now the 5th largest airline in the world (scheduled passenger-miles), and the 4th largest in the world in terms of fleet size.

And I'm not sure "we" had much of a say in whether an airline offers service over price. We got crappy service *and* high prices in my experience.

Edited by Jennings
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I airline a LOT for work. My company almost always gets tickets for under $200, and normally closer to $150. That's stupid cheap for when you look at what it actually cost to operate and airline sized aircraft. Those prices aren't on Spirit either, that's American and Delta. Prices really should be a lot higher if people want better service.

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What will you do for work? I don't want to sound cold but that's your problem. No one put a gun to your head and forced you to work for a particular employer. Maybe go to work for Emirates or Singapore and get a feel what the words "Customer Service" mean? This is a free market society, consumers choose who they will spend their money on based on the value of the product. My personal opinion is that the US legacy airlines offer zero value and I will avoid them unless there are absolutely no other options available.

Pretty sure I'll be saving much more than $45 on a ticket as well. Regardless, if I was only saving $1.50 I'd still opt for what gives me the best value and unfortunately, it's not any of the US legacies. Hell, I'd spend considerably more for a ticket if I thought the value was there. Like I said on a previous post, I could surely get a cheaper domestic flight on Spirit but no amount of savings is worth it.

It's still early in the AM and maybe my coffee hasn't kicked yet but it almost sounds like you are making the argument - "We know we suck but you should blindly support us because we are a domestic industry". Surely I am missing something. Sounds like something out of Ford or GM back in the 80's.

Harsh, as expected. But no, you missed my point. As expected. Either way, support what and who you want. Just saying it has an effect whether you realize or not (not).

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Harsh, as expected. But no, you missed my point. As expected. Either way, support what and who you want. Just saying it has an effect whether you realize or not (not).

Gotta get your digs in. Typical. I get your point(s) but have little sympathy. Maybe I will when I see those employees actually trying to provide a minimal level of service. It's harsh but it's reality. I don't relish seeing anyone losing their jobs, even folks at those airlines. However, for all of your hand wringing, I highly doubt that thousands will be unemployed due to these new competitors. Your airline (and the other legacies) have got enough of an established customer base out there that they'll be able to fend off the competition. If anything, thousand will probably be unemployed when the legacies go through their next, inevitable, round of mergers.

Jennings - Southwest is definitely a "major". However I don't believe I used that term. They are not the same as a "legacy" airline such as AA or Delta. Technically, I believe they are a Low Cost Carrier. Different business model, although the lines are being blurred a bit now that they have grown to their current size. It will be interesting to see how they maintain growth. Going international is a good start but I'd like to see them expand beyond just the Caribbean. If they want to stay an all-737 carrier, I believe that Boeing's new MAX version would still enable them to do some limited trans-Atlantic flights.

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No not dogs, just saying there's more happening than meets the eye, especially if the media is the source communicating "information." You're correct in that US based airlines are at the bottom of customer service and experience rankings, but that doesn't mean giving their work to another airline is a good thing. Even if Norwegians service were the best in the world, it's not everything.

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When Norwegian or Emirates take over, as you say, those jobs won't go to Americans. As bad as customer service is at US based airlines, they're still a source of jobs and employment for tens of thousands of people, if not more. Norwegian and Emirates won't scoop them up. Then what?

for as crappy as we treat people, its still a job that we deserve! wait what?

I'm curious because that doesn't seem important to you. What will we do for work?

Stand in an unemployment line and go over all the coulda shoula woulda's for the times you mistreated people, and they went elsewhere?

Is this really so difficult? Treat people well, treat people right= Keep your job. Thats how it works where I am. I am keenly aware of this because being in the military you didn't need to keep people happy, but boy in my job now I sure do.

You guys would really rather be unemployed than not be dikks to people? Christ on a cracker what am I missing? "The only option is tolerate our maltreatment so we can keep working"? There are no other improvements or alternatives in this that you could use to improve your profitability and competitiveness? being polite doesn't cost a dime.

Not that Norwegian and Emirates are a bad thing, but taking over the US market with no help from new or existing laws to protect our jobs is writing on the wall. I hope it's worth the $45 you'll save on a ticket.

you want to be legally protected from competition rather than treat people well?

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You're correct in that US based airlines are at the bottom of customer service and experience rankings, but that doesn't mean giving their work to another airline is a good thing. Even if Norwegians service were the best in the world, it's not everything.

right its not everything, but isn't improving the low rankings SOMETHING?

this is like those conversations I have with people who have "tried everything to lose weight" except diet and exercise of course. I understand that there is a certain segment of the population that won't lose weight due to medical or hormonal problems... but lets try before we cosign ourselves to the demographic...

In other words have we tried improving customer service and making it a top priority and then reassessing if that has affected the profitability of the company, and edging out competitive airlines? Have you tried being nice, and seeing what happens?

When you have a job you don't like and take it out on the customer, you won't have a job for long.

I feel like I have jumped through the rabbit hole, we are acknowledging that we are not doing a good job and our customers loath us, but what matters is we get to keep our jobs? I feel like the whole problem is right there in one online post. Ive got some bad news. People won't care if you lose your job when you mistreat them at your job.

You think if Delta went out of business tomorrow people would not stand and applaud? they would watch the news, see everyone getting laid off and just start grinning. Miserable experiences with Delta, and I know I am not the only one. the sad loss I am supposed to feel would be replaced by a smug satisfaction. why? because they were jerks, and watching jerks get whats coming to them trumps my flag waving, especially if the alternative is enabling them

TL:DR?

folks don't feel bad about people losing their jobs when they feel those people deserved to lose their jobs.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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TT you must work at USAA now, if so I love you guys. As for customer service, boy that's a tricky subject. I've flown for some interesting companies with varied customer views. First, at the end of the day, it's up to each employee to bring their best. However, the institution itself is greatly responsible for nurturing the attitude it wants to put forth. That starts with strong leadership providing a good example and peer pressure to be the best. As an employee surrounded by other employees doing their best, it's natural for someone to fall into line and be their best. But, that works both ways. Poor leadership and a toxic work environment will drag down even the best employees over time. Southwest is an example of the first, "legacy" carriers the latter. It's a solvable problem, but it will take a concerted effort to make it happen.

Edited by falcon20driver
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TT you must work at USAA now, if so I love you guys. As for customer service, boy that's a tricky subject. I've flown for some interesting companies with varied customer views. First, at the end of the day, it's up to each employee to bring their best. However, the institution itself is greatly responsible for nurturing the attitude it wants to put forth. That starts with strong leadership providing a good example and peer pressure to be the best. As an employee surrounded by other employees doing their best, it's natural for someone to fall into line and be their best. But, that works both ways. Poor leadership and a toxic work environment will drag down even the best employees over time. Southwest is an example of the first, "legacy" carriers the latter. It's a solvable problem, but it will take a concerted effort to make it happen.

I don't work at USAA but SWMBO does. :thumbsup:

I agree with all of this, its a concentrated effort from the top down. I am not expert in pizza's or the exact model but didn't Dominoes do a complete 180 and basically acknowledge they were doing a poor job and have turned it around with a whole new way of treating the customer and improving their product?

Here is the downside for about a year its going to just suck, because its going to take people a while to forgive the bad service, you are going to get kicked in the nuts for a while. but slowly, over time people are going to start noticing the changes, and seeing the improvement. We know delays will happen, we know SNAFUs happen, we get that things will happen that are just the nature of the biz, and of course things that are out of the hands of the airlines, but how those things are handled that is the difference. hopefully it will be faster now with social media. word spreads. thats both a blessing or curse, so handle it smartly or else.

for a lot of people flying is high stress: connections to make, security checkpoints, fear of flying, stress of travel, being lost in a new place, high food prices etc add a few kids... people get tense and angered easily. they are vulnerable a lot of the time, and treating them poorly rather than being more helpful in a vulnerable time gets remembered.

And I know people can be jerks I get that, but you have to be able to absorb that and realize they are not in a good place mentally especially when things go wrong like cancellations and delays. How you handle those might actually be more important than a nice flight attendant or friendly pilot. its more important to get it right when things go wrong

TSA is treating people nicer these days, and those are government employees who take minor miracles to get fired and don't have any incentive to be polite to people. Thats bad when they are outdoing the airlines.

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