For Martin@ AMK Keep The F-14 Release on Schedule

[Don]

Berkut's post was interesting and enlightening to read. I am also in the "give me shape over panel lines camp". Panel lines can be added or subtracted far easier then fixing overall shape issues.

[Youngtiger1]

I think we all should have bit more faith in our new friends (AMK). As they are new kids on the block and they have already created nice kits. Are they perfect? Of course not, Tamiya with their experience still makes mistakes. So, let's just give them time and credit for what they have done so far and help them to get better. They are willing to listen, so why not point them in right direction. It's all good for our benefit in the end.

[RKic]

What the F#%k are you talking about? A discussion of a model in a model discussion group.. Wow that's radical!

I'm f%$king talking about the people who got upset about Poncho's observation beimg the same folks who nitpic other aspects of models.

[ijozic]

Its fun to watch the rivet counters squirm when confronted by an uber-rivet counter. See guys? This is how you make the more casual modelers feel when you poopoo things all the time.

An uber-rivet counter? Haha, this is so funny :)

[boom175]

I'm f%$king talking about the people who got upset about Poncho's observation beimg the same folks who nitpic other aspects of models.

Ok Very cool, but I think it came across kind of a broad stroke to people that either a. have a intimate knowledge about the real thing i.e. Crew Chief, Pilot, Engineer etc. or b. are super enthused researchers who have become subject matter experts and provide documentation of a aspect of the kit. As someone neither on this particular subject, I want all the information I can get to make my own decisions. I agree they're are those that tend to add they're own opinions about a kit manufacture that are probably suited for a different discussion.

[Sir Fondlebottom]

This is what I mean when I talk about post count. If Poncho had been posting for a length of time, we would know what to expect from him. But he posted comments that were nonproductive to the discussion. It would be like me coming into your house while you were building a model and have me start telling you everything you were doing wrong and how ridiculous it is for you to be doing it your way. That is why I posted my response to Poncho.

So you equate this critique of a model kit, put out by a corporate entity, to "It would be like me coming into your house while you were building a model and have me start telling you everything you were doing wrong and how ridiculous it is for you to be doing it your way."? Like he's attacking your way of modeling and your way of enjoying the hobby??

I feel he's being snarky because it's quite silly how people go out of their way to worship a product like it is a faultless pinnacle of engineering graced to us by the gods. AMK can do no wrong and it will clearly be superior to that Tamiya crap, obviously.

What irks me about this is that he's not attacking your kids here, he's being snarky about a pile of plastic and while doing so happens to point out actual errors that people ironically seem to overlook. Upon doing so he gets tone policed, and his low post count is pointed out as if it would be okay to be snarky once he's one of the in-guys and part of the clique.

In the end I agree with him on the two points that I dislike about this kit, the engine mirroring and the overdone panel lines, which in my not so humble opinion does not live up to the Tamiya Mustang nor Corsair. Other than that I am on the same line as Berkut.

I love the BM/BSM and have the B/BS on order as well, and I will be getting the AMK effort of the F-14 too.

Remember, everything can be improved, offense is not given, it is taken.

[RKic]

Ok Very cool, but I think it came across kind of a broad stroke to people that either a. have a intimate knowledge about the real thing i.e. Crew Chief, Pilot, Engineer etc. or b. are super enthused researchers who have become subject matter experts and provide documentation of a aspect of the kit. As someone neither on this particular subject, I want all the information I can get to make my own decisions. I agree they're are those that tend to add they're own opinions about a kit manufacture that are probably suited for a different discussion.

Fair enough. It wasn't intended as a blow against anybody particular. Just an observation that we have varying levels of tolerance for details, or their lack. And we then have tendencies to look unkindly on those who are more or less obsessed than we are.

I too, am guilty of this.

Edited May 16, 2016 by RKic

[Jinxter13]

Clusterflub.......sorry

Edited May 16, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[Jinxter13]

I have never pretended to be an expert on any aircraft and will never do so, however for the uber-super-ultra critics (The top rung rivet counter) of any model kit , There is an old saying that goes "if you want something done right, it is best to do it yourself; so before you drop the hammer on AMK, KH, GWH, Tamiya, Hasegawa, Revell, etal...perhaps you could/would/should consider acquiring the funding to design, mold, and produce a kit that the entire modeling world of that genre will break down doors to purchase a copy of said kit. I must remind you it can have no flaws in the mold or design; the nose, canopy, wings, LG, every part has to be exact as on the real article nothing visible externally can be left out, or omitted by design for any purpose, (parts for updated variants are an option) only scaled down in every detail...a pet peeve of mine is no one, even the PE/resin makers seem to show the O₂ flow indicators correctly or in the correct position . FYI all green for 100% and green/white striped for 70% don't ask about an all white indicator :o .

There are those on ARC who have the credentials to criticize kits, as they have been consulted for upcoming kits (in design) and asked to review kits about to go in to production (after the test shots), by folks who will make the kit....we know who they are; even they cut the kit makers some slack... and as Berkut said; pretty much if the shape is within parameters...it's all good; but when the shape is ballparked...they sound off and rightly so.

[mario krijan]

Just my opinion... I am mechanical engineer and i like real technical approach in designing of MiG-31 kit and with all new (ways of molding) they prepare hight tech kit, which even I dont like MiG-31, I bought it because I feel that designer and producer breath with modellers :-)

Tamiya is biiig company compared to AMK, like my company compared to Cameron, Breda, Voith or Flender. So I wish all Best to AMK team!! Bring us that Flanker!!!! :-)

[MoFo]

I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused reading all this. Can someone straighten things out for me?

People don't give a crap about the upcoming Tamiya F-14, not because there's anything particularly 'wrong' with it, but because a newer company who has released one wildly popular (extremely well marketed) kit has also announced that they will also be releasing an F-14. One of the main reasons said kit is so wildly popular is that it has been deemed '99.99% accurate'. And one of the reasons why it has been deemed '99.99% accurate' is that Pancho helped point out flaws on the kit so that they could be corrected, in order to produce the most accurate model possible.

But also. (and here's the part where I'm confused)

Pancho should stop picking every little nit and just shut up and be grateful with what manufacturers design.

Have I got that right? Because it seems like that can't possibly be right.

(I mean, we *know* what an un-critiqued AMK kit looks like; it looks like their Kfir, which is well engineered, beautifully tooled, with a seriously inaccurate fuselage. I'm pretty sure the F-14 fans wouldn't be happy with that.)

[RKic]

But Pancho is new, so his opinion doesn't count ;)

[Berkut]

I'm sorry, but I'm a little confused reading all this. Can someone straighten things out for me?

People don't give a crap about the upcoming Tamiya F-14, not because there's anything particularly 'wrong' with it, but because a newer company who has released one wildly popular (extremely well marketed) kit has also announced that they will also be releasing an F-14. One of the main reasons said kit is so wildly popular is that it has been deemed '99.99% accurate'. And one of the reasons why it has been deemed '99.99% accurate' is that Pancho helped point out flaws on the kit so that they could be corrected, in order to produce the most accurate model possible.

But also. (and here's the part where I'm confused)

Pancho should stop picking every little nit and just shut up and be grateful with what manufacturers design.

Have I got that right? Because it seems like that can't possibly be right.

(I mean, we *know* what an un-critiqued AMK kit looks like; it looks like their Kfir, which is well engineered, beautifully tooled, with a seriously inaccurate fuselage. I'm pretty sure the F-14 fans wouldn't be happy with that.)

The hype around AMK F-14 and the dissing of the Tamiya kit on ARC is pretty ridiculous. And i am saying this as someone who has every reason to fanboy AMK. But i am not sure what exact marketing you are talking about? Sio posted around these parts to be the face of the company and to collect any possible feedback in order to improve the kit, so did i. That is a company being accessible, not just hyping stuff up. (i am looking at you, Eduard) But frankly, beyond ARC and AMK FB group (which are pretty limited viewership) there wasnt exactly a lot of marketing. The reason the kit turned out to be popular is because it is a good kit, sold for a fair price, in what is a popular scale right now. Not because of some black magic marketing.

If Pancho didn't contact me to show what was iirc two (2) bugs on the design of the kit, it would still be "99,99%" accurate. I appreciate the feedback he gave which i then passed on, but it is not like it was anything earth shattering, which also applies to majority of those 100+ bugs i have mentioned.

[Darren Roberts]

So you equate this critique of a model kit, put out by a corporate entity, to "It would be like me coming into your house while you were building a model and have me start telling you everything you were doing wrong and how ridiculous it is for you to be doing it your way."? Like he's attacking your way of modeling and your way of enjoying the hobby??

I feel he's being snarky because it's quite silly how people go out of their way to worship a product like it is a faultless pinnacle of engineering graced to us by the gods. AMK can do no wrong and it will clearly be superior to that Tamiya crap, obviously.

What irks me about this is that he's not attacking your kids here, he's being snarky about a pile of plastic and while doing so happens to point out actual errors that people ironically seem to overlook. Upon doing so he gets tone policed, and his low post count is pointed out as if it would be okay to be snarky once he's one of the in-guys and part of the clique.

In the end I agree with him on the two points that I dislike about this kit, the engine mirroring and the overdone panel lines, which in my not so humble opinion does not live up to the Tamiya Mustang nor Corsair. Other than that I am on the same line as Berkut.

I love the BM/BSM and have the B/BS on order as well, and I will be getting the AMK effort of the F-14 too.

Remember, everything can be improved, offense is not given, it is taken.

So why be snarky? Why not just point out the issues with the kit? There's an old proverb that states, "You catch more flies with honey than vinegar". The lack of civility that occurs in some of these discussions is a bit disconcerting. I would imagine that most of what is said here wouldn't be said in a face-to-face conversation. Poncho indeed did make a personal comment ("To all those In AMK we trust people"), so it all wasn't about a hunk of plastic. I'll turn the question around. Why are both of you so upset about people saying the AMK MiG-31 is a wonderful kit? It's just a hunk of plastic. It goes both ways. I personally can't wait for the Tamiya Tomcat kit. It's going to be a great kit. I'm also very interested to see what AMK can do with their Tomcat kit. I would imagine both will sell very well. I really don't understand why there is angst about the lack of dropped flaps/slats on the Tamiya kit. I don't see that as a big deal, but that's simply my opinion. The only thing I've pointed out about the Tamiya kit is that detail looks to be simplified from what they have been producing lately. That may change in the final production run, but it looks to be pretty far along. Either way, it still looks to be a wonderful release, and I'm sure the fit will be fantastic. The F-14 has a lot of passionate people who like it, so it will create some passionate responses. But they can be civil responses.

[Darren Roberts]

But Pancho is new, so his opinion doesn't count ;)/>

It would count if he was nice about it. :D

[Don]

[bACON] has a lot of passionate people who like it, so [DOES STEAK] it will create some passionate responses. But they can be civil responses.

Nope! Not when two such tasty meats are being discussed in the same thread...

:P

O.k. o.k I'll leave now...just trying to bring a little levity to the thread...

[RCAFFAN]

I've got no dog in this fight as I build 1/72 and not usually jet stuff but while I do agree with much of what Darren says he was out of line to belittle someone just on the number of post counts. I also suspect from his post that English isn't Pancho's first language so don't take him so literally either.

Oh wait, I see that while I joined the board the same day as Darren (coming over first day from the old board) I see I only have less than a quarter of his posts so I guess I better shut up now :monkeydance:/>/> Don't get much from post numbers on their own......

Edited May 16, 2016 by RCAFFAN

[B.Sin]

Just my opinion... I am mechanical engineer and i like real technical approach in designing of MiG-31 kit and with all new (ways of molding) they prepare hight tech kit, which even I dont like MiG-31, I bought it because I feel that designer and producer breath with modellers :-)

Tamiya is biiig company compared to AMK, like my company compared to Cameron, Breda, Voith or Flender. So I wish all Best to AMK team!! Bring us that Flanker!!!! :-)

Mario, I'll second that Flanker vote!

[speedlimit]

Lets agree to disagree and just be happy we have more 1/48 tomcats to choose from and enjoy.

Eric

[RCAFFAN]

Lets agree to disagree and just be happy we have more 1/48 tomcats to choose from and enjoy.

Eric

With an attitude like that I have to ask if you are thinking of moving to Canada if the next election doesn't work out for you? :lol:

Got to go ...been on here too long today.....

[Jinxter13]

Let me ask is it fair to say; that no kit maker is above reproach?. IIRC Tamiya has dropped the ball so to speak on other occasions; such as their 1/48 Sea Harrier FRS Mk 1, a kit I stayed away from, and from personal experience their 1/48 "C" Eagle the "Maloney's Pony" kit left many Eagle lovers disappointed with the detail and overall mold design the clam shell top and bottom fuselage assembly had some scratching their collective heads and asking WDTDT...when every other Eagle kit went with the side x side approach. The Tamiya 1/48 Vipers are some of the best in class; if not the best, but even mighty Tamiya isn't infallible; past laurels aren't enough to guarantee future successes. It does give those who want to build a Tomcat in 48th another option to consider.

Edited May 16, 2016 by #1 Greywolf

[speedlimit]

With an attitude like that I have to ask if you are thinking of moving to Canada if the next election doesn't work out for you? :lol:/>

Got to go ...been on here too long today.....

Funny you ask. I was thinking of that as well. Lol

Eric

[ESzczesniak]

Let me ask is it fair to say; that no kit maker is above reproach?. IIRC Tamiya has dropped the ball so to speak on other occasions; such as their 1/48 Sea Harrier FRS Mk 1, a kit I stayed away from, and from personal experience their 1/48 "C" Eagle the "Maloney's Pony" kit left many Eagle lovers disappointed with the detail and overall mold design the clam shell top and bottom fuselage assembly had some scratching their collective heads and asking WDTDT...when every other Eagle kit went with the side x side approach. The Tamiya 1/48 Vipers are some of the best in class; if not the best, but even mighty Tamiya isn't infallible; past laurels aren't enough to guarantee future successes. It does give those who want to build a Tomcat in 48th another option to consider.

The Eagle and Harrier you're referencing are very old kits. Not so sure that's a fair comparison.

[cr7driver]

I'll be glad to buy both.

But AMK better sharpen up those panel lines, sharpen some of the detail and do something about there distribution or the only people buying them will be us.

Tamiya is the King of simple build, accurate and well engineered kits with distribution that covers the world.

I found one shop in Australia after two days looking who had a Mig-31 in stock so I could buy my third the first two I ordered from Sincere.

I think I could find ten shops in ten minutes with Tamiya F-16's or any other Tamiya kit.

If people think Tamiya will be expensive think again any time they have released into a congested market it has been brilliant value.

Think 1/32 Mustang at 8000 yen ie 65USD at release..

It's a crowded market good luck to AMK..

I hope AMK stays the course and listens to the modellers. Especially with regard to the panel lines. Yes, they need to sharpened up a bit for sure. How about 2 options for wings. One with pose able flight controls and one with solid closed wings that could be used to show the aircraft in a swept back configuration. How about engine and weapons bays that can be posed open but with doors that fit well enough should the modeler choose to model them closed. Tamiya has chosen to not include weapons....please dont do that!

I think AMK has an opportunity to topple the king of models by putting out an offering that will truly be legendary.

I for one look forward to hearing more about your kit.

[Darren Roberts]

Okay, my comment about post count was a bit misconstrued and misunderstood. I apologize for that. It has obviously been taken as belittling Poncho. That was not the intent. I guess I was defending ARC in a certain regard. My word picture of coming over to someones house didn't seem to do the trick. Let me try this. Say you're at a model contest and you're having an animated discussion with a friend about a model on the table. Then someone whom you've never met comes up and simply joins in the conversation. Now, that's what model contests are for. However, this individual is very aggressive in their points and seems like a "know it all", if you will. I'm pretty sure both of you would be turned off by that. If another one of your friends comes up and joins the conversation and is the same way, but you know he's like that, you simply roll your eyes and chuckle a bit, knowing that's who he is. That's all my comment about post count was intended to be. It obviously wasn't taken that way, so I'll rescind that comment and apologize once more the unintended misunderstanding. However, I will stand by my assertion that you don't have to be snarky to give good information.