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I still think a mixed fleet is cheaper. Rather than buying all F-35, which are turning out to be expensive. Why not buy F-35's for Stealth missions and 4th generation for the non stealth missions. Does it really make sense to try to maintain a stealth fleet for 100% of the missions? I do not see the USAF buying all Raptors and scrapping their F-16's and F-15's

There are plenty of missions where 4th generation can do the work, so why is it necessary to have a higher cost stealth aircraft for low end 4th generation work.

I understand that having a fleet of one aircraft is cheaper for airlines, but to try and bring that argument into the military realm forgets that the military is different from an airline. I do appreciate the fact that a fleet of 4th generation aircraft of all the same aircraft is cheaper than a mixed fleet of 4th generation aircraft, but Canada also needs to have some stealth fighters for certain circumstances.

I don't think every bear wandering the coastline needs a stealth intercept, but I do think if Canada does go toe to toe with Russia, it would be nice to have some stealth capabilities to tend to certain issues that will present themselves. The F-117 provided to be quite the handy asset in the opening days of Desert Storm and I suspect once western air forces begin to go up against stealth adversaries, it will be handy to have stealth aircraft in the mix.

I didn't say I was against a mixed fleet. If I had things my way I'd have a fleet of 500 fighters.

Yes, the Bear is old technology. Yes, the F-117 was effective in Desert Storm. But we need to flex our muscles against Russia with the best equipment possible. F-22s aren't in Alaska because the pilots like the palm trees.

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Also want to point out, I'm not a JSF hater. As a patriot and tax payer I WANT it to succeed. I WANT it to be all that and a bag of chips. The enemies we face in the future will be much better dealt with if JSF reaches all its promise and potential. Too many people depend on its success for it to fail.

However, let's not pretend this program isn't the anything but a poster child for mismanaged aquisition programs. All the lessons learned from past programs were ignored and the prevailing attitude has always been "we're too big to fail or that won't happen to us". A wise man one said "hope is not a strategy", well in JSF program hope is about the only thing they seem to have. For the sake of our future, I hope we never repeat the mistakes of JSF.

Rant off.

Has it been mismanaged? The 787 was delayed. New science takes time to develop. The F-35 is new science.

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Has it been mismanaged? The 787 was delayed. New science takes time to develop. The F-35 is new science.

I'll be one to get on the 787 bandwagon. Very nice bird....very easy to work. However like anything engineers were involved in the planning process. They can be book stupid.....if an older technology works very well......don't fix it!!!! Leave it alone!!! This aircraft is a work horse.

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If the current PM wants to throw out all of the studies, audits, testing, evaluations, and research already done and paid for that's fine. Well, it shouldn't be fine to the Canadian tax payers who have already funded all of the previous studies et al but apparently that's what they wanted when they voted for you know who. But honestly this whole process has become so bungled, so mismanaged, so tainted, and so politicized (by all involved...past and present) that the only real solution to ensure that the best platform is being selected is to hold a new competition. He and his minions have stated that they would do such a course of action so then do it already. Do it and let the chips fall where they may. Put your big boy pants (or boxing trunks) on, stand up in the House and call for it...tomorrow if you want to. But rushing to buy the SH and using precious and limited funds to do so could be a HUGE mistake! Especially if its just to save face. If Boeing says they won't have the SH around/in production should Canada begin a new competition then so be it...I guess you won't be able to take part. Personally that speaks volumes but hey, that's me. But...we all know why he won't hold a new competition...bad for the image should things not go his way.

Should be an interesting summer.

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I doubt it will be debated much before parliament steps down for the summer. Sunny s priority is feminizing the anthem and pushing through the right to die bill. THe fall is the Ontario Green bill tax the population until we are all broke bill.

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Article brings up some very good points that the Canadian tax payer needs to be asking...shouting...at Ottawa:

"Four allied air forces operate in the Arctic. The U.S., Norway and Denmark, which defends Greenland and sometimes deploys fighter jets to a base they jointly operate with the USAF at Thule, will soon only be flying state-of-the art F-35s in the Far North. The other country, Canada, will not."

"An older but still persistent argument to support the Super Hornets is that it will be safer to operate in the Far North than the one engine F-35s. Advances in civilian and military jet engine technology long ago made such thinking obsolete. Otherwise, the Pentagon would not have decided that only F-35s will fly from its most northern air base near Fairbanks, Alaska."

"...extreme disappointment and disbelief across the upper reaches of Canada’s military community about what has been decided. What makes them furious is the government’s refusal to discuss the matter."

"Finland has looked at the numbers that Denmark came up with after a competition in which it chose the F-35 over the Super Hornet. As a result, the Finns are believed to be close to deciding that they, too, will reject the Super Hornet in favour of the F-35. If Finland follows Denmark’s lead, it will become the 12th western-oriented air force in a row to choose the F-35 over the Super Hornet, with Canada the only exception.

Canadians should ask themselves: Is everyone who made those decisions — including those confronting similar security challenges in the Arctic — stupid? What is it that makes Canada so unique that it feels it can ignore the collective wisdom of all its allies and friends?"

Honestly, it boggles the mind...

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I doubt it will be debated much before parliament steps down for the summer. Sunny s priority is feminizing the anthem and pushing through the right to die bill. THe fall is the Ontario Green bill tax the population until we are all broke bill.

Ah yes I forgot how politicians the World over like to take frequent and lengthy breaks from the burdens of leadership... :doh:

:lol:

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Sunny s priority is feminizing the anthem

I will always say "IN ALL THY SON'S COMMAND" as for one it's grammatically proper and when the anthem's English version was written this was a gender neutral term for one.

"IN ALL OF US COMMAND" makes Canadians look to be rather illiterate.

BTW. If male type terms will now all be wrong in our 3rd wave feminists/sjw poisoned world should NASA now have to send a manned Moon mission to replace the plaque left on the LM sitting on the Moon by Apollo 11 where it stated "We came in peace for all mankind"?

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Ah yes I forgot how politicians the World over like to take frequent and lengthy breaks from the burdens of leadership... :doh:/>

:lol:/>

To be fair, they spend the intervening time in their electorates having their ears bent by a range of irate voters from the engaged and sensible to the outright nutcases and attending endless tedious "events"

I suspect that that is why they act like naughty children in Parliament - it feels like a holiday

Shane

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Well I think there have been instances where our forces have had multiple aircraft types..... at one point did we not have the CF-100/CF-101/CF-104/CF-116 and the CF-188 all operational.....although CF-100 was retired before The Hornet came on line. This all happened under T senior. So I can see Junior doing the same. We will have Lightning II the question is when.

Emil, you're right about the historical aspects, but one reason we went to a single-aircraft fleet was to save costs. Going back to a mixed fleet is not possible with any budget constraints we have now. That's why this whole silliness about buying Super Hornets for the short term is completely bogus. It is a political way of avoiding an F-35 buy, because Justin T said he would not buy the F-35. That's the only reason we would buy them. Too bad that politicians are getting into the equipment black-listing game yet again.

Political rant off - please don't ban me!

ALF

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...one reason we went to a single-aircraft fleet was to save costs. Going back to a mixed fleet is not possible with any budget constraints we have now. That's why this whole silliness about buying Super Hornets for the short term is completely bogus. It is a political way of avoiding an F-35 buy, because Justin T said he would not buy the F-35. That's the only reason we would buy them.

ALF

Exactly!

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Emil, you're right about the historical aspects, but one reason we went to a single-aircraft fleet was to save costs. Going back to a mixed fleet is not possible with any budget constraints we have now. That's why this whole silliness about buying Super Hornets for the short term is completely bogus. It is a political way of avoiding an F-35 buy, because Justin T said he would not buy the F-35. That's the only reason we would buy them. Too bad that politicians are getting into the equipment black-listing game yet again.

Political rant off - please don't ban me!

ALF

When I'm PM we won't worry about money.

I'll even name a carrier after myself and a prison after the Trudeau's.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Posted in the F-35 thread too. But this infographic was made so simple, that even a Canadian Politician could understand it (well some anyway)

Amazing numbers.

Nope, Trudeau wouldn't understand it, he can't even tie his shoes.

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Amazing numbers.

Nope, Trudeau wouldn't understand it, he can't even tie his shoes.

Now days the velcro straps on the shoes counts towards tying your shoes.....and you get a gold star.

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Now days the velcro straps on the shoes counts towards tying your shoes.....and you get a gold star.

Yippee everyone's a winner...

Sunny ways... :rolleyes:

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USAF says they are still on track to be IOC by years end...

10 other countries and over a dozen air arms are buying F-35 besides the US, to include the Brits, and Israelis and canada isn't one of them.

They are trying to screw you guys. They are trying to buy a silver mdeal at inflated cost under the lie that something must be done right now. Breaking a promise to a fair competition and hoping you are too stupid to notice the poor sales job. You can call me a fanboy or whatever but (especially canadian) media controversy aside this aircraft is happening. Looking at a 400+ airplane order hopefully by the start of next year for lots 12-14. And JT and Co are trying to convince you guys to stick a thumb in NORADs eye and become the laughing stock of NATO. He is making canada look like a bunch of clueless children who don't take commitments seriously, and don't comprehend 21st century airpower. People are noticing, NATO is noticing and many defense/defence apparatuses around the globe are gobsmacked. Emails are shooting around all over the globe and it's not about how rebellious and brilliant canada is, they are about pointing a loaded shotgun at the foot that is left after EH101 and wondering how anyone could be so foolish... twice

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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They are trying to buy a silver mdeal at inflated cost

Regarding cost, obviously we all know that purchase price is only one part of the equation. Right?

So on that note - what are the staffing levels required for an F-35 squadron vrs a squadron w/ the same number of SH's? What are the total O&M costs for both aircraft over say... a 20 year period? What are the costs for new infrastructure / training? I've seen a lot of mention about new buildings going up at US bases slated to receive the F-35, would Canada have to construct new buildings if it opt'd for the SH or would the existing infrastructure work? Is the F-35 more expensive to maintain due to it's stealth coatings and higher tech equip? Simulators are crucial to both aircraft, so what are the costs for an F-35 sim vrs one for the SH? You are going to need a good number of sims, so these costs need to be factored in, right?

I'm sure the numbers are out there. It's just a bit disingenuous when some say that Aircraft X is cheaper than Aircraft Y because it costs 5 million less per copy. Over the lifetime of an aircraft, purchase cost is a small component. Hopefully all the experts out there (and here) have factored that into the equation when they make statements that the F-35 is cheaper than the SH.

Also, has Boeing provided Canada with a quote for new SH's or are we just looking at purchase costs from ongoing / historical purchases? As BA has shown in the commercial market, they have the ability to deeply discount unit pricing when they feel the need to. If it meant keeping the SH line open for another 5 years, I'd bet that they would find a way to cut pricing.

Just food for thought...

Edited by 11bee
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