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Regarding cost, obviously we all know that purchase price is only one part of the equation. Right?

So on that note - what are the staffing levels required for an F-35 squadron vrs a squadron w/ the same number of SH's? What are the total O&M costs for both aircraft over say... a 20 year period? What are the costs for new infrastructure / training? I've seen a lot of mention about new buildings going up at US bases slated to receive the F-35, would Canada have to construct new buildings if it opt'd for the SH or would the existing infrastructure work? Is the F-35 more expensive to maintain due to it's stealth coatings and higher tech equip? Simulators are crucial to both aircraft, so what are the costs for an F-35 sim vrs one for the SH? You are going to need a good number of sims, so these costs need to be factored in, right?

I'm sure the numbers are out there. It's just a bit disingenuous when some say that Aircraft X is cheaper than Aircraft Y because it costs 5 million less per copy. Over the lifetime of an aircraft, purchase cost is a small component. Hopefully all the experts out there (and here) have factored that into the equation when they make statements that the F-35 is cheaper than the SH.

Also, has Boeing provided Canada with a quote for new SH's or are we just looking at purchase costs from ongoing / historical purchases? As BA has shown in the commercial market, they have the ability to deeply discount unit pricing when they feel the need to. If it meant keeping the SH line open for another 5 years, I'd bet that they would find a way to cut pricing.

Just food for thought...

The Danes just did a comparison of everything you talked about and not just price per unit but all the costs you mention including decades of operation, the F-35 won on all counts. Including the need to buy more SH in order to do the same thing fewer F-35s could do.

We've been there done that. The Aussies have super hornets and F-35s and concluded the F-35 would be cheaper.

Since SHs are larger they would certainly need more hangers, and SH has Radar absorbant materials too.

Boeing can't "deeply discount" super hornets because it's illegal to offer it at prices that are less than what the US pays for. Boeing can't waive FMS and R&D fees either. One look at what Australia paid shows the reality vs what the USN pays. The Danswer released their report less than 2 months ago. It's current and it's verified

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The Danes just did a comparison of everything you talked about and not just price per unit but all the costs you mention including decades of operation, the F-35 won on all counts. Including the need to buy more SH in order to do the same thing fewer F-35s could do.

We've been there done that. The Aussies have super hornets and F-35s and concluded the F-35 would be cheaper.

Since SHs are larger they would certainly need more hangers, and SH has Radar absorbant materials too.

Boeing can't "deeply discount" super hornets because it's illegal to offer it at prices that are less than what the US pays for. Boeing can't waive FMS and R&D fees either. One look at what Australia paid shows the reality vs what the USN pays. The Danswer released their report less than 2 months ago. It's current and it's verified

Works for me then, just wanted to raise the issue. Wasn't aware that BA couldn't get creative with it's bid numbers, I thought they had some autonomy in that area.

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Works for me then, just wanted to raise the issue. Wasn't aware that BA couldn't get creative with it's bid numbers, I thought they had some autonomy in that area.

Those questions are indeed valid, but there was a KPMG (auditor) report put out a few years back with detailed 40-year in-service costs for various fighter options. Twin-engined aircraft (like the SH) came out as more expensive in general for O&M costs. The F-35 is actually quite competitive in life-cycle costs. Essentially, for the same or less cost, Canada would have far more effective fighters if we bought the F-35. The only reason we haven't yet is due to politicians treating the acquisition as a means to win political points. Period.

ALF

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Works for me then, just wanted to raise the issue. Wasn't aware that BA couldn't get creative with it's bid numbers, I thought they had some autonomy in that area.

I think in civil/private matters they do. But the law I believe is meant to stop an arms dealer from selling at deep discount to someone else whilewhile passing the "savings" onto US taxpayers. So whatever thr US paying is what canada will pay, plus fees as mentioned. And there isn't much wiggle on that. Where they can wiggle is industrial perks, but seeing as Boeing is having a hard time promising jobs in the US as it is... Canadian firms would probbaly be going "feast or famine" based on civilian airline contracts, as opposed to the constant work share the F-35 offers. And even so, if such a thing was allowed, no reason why LM couldn't offer discounts as well. For some reason a lot people think Boeing can name their price. I don't know why that is. Maybe it is the private sales.

Danish ministry of defence issued a recalculation based on the F/A-18E one-seater and 8,000 hrs to the airframe life. They concluded that 30 SH would be needed in lieu of the recommended 28 F-35A. They also concluded that even if this reduced the estimated life cycle costs using the Super Hornet with $1B, the life cycle costs using the F-35A was still $1.5B cheaper.

Everytime the JSF vs Super hornet in international competition the F-35 wins. Which is why JT is trying to avoid a competition like the plague despite promising one. There is no reason to think the canadians would somehow arrive at a different conclusion than the Danes or japanese

It's pretty cLear to me that JT is no fan of foreign adventures, he pulled the Cf-18s away from Syria even after the ISIS attacks in france. He says the JSF is a first day striker. He also promised to go for the navy. So it's clear his plan us to nuteur the RCAF and make it irrelevant short of patrolling, before it can't even do that. If it's a small order that turns permanent so much the better because he can spend on the navy he promised and the CF-18s have been Canada's big stick the last 25 years. And he doesn't like big sticks.

It's not a secret about how he feels canada should be interacting with the world and it's not the military --short of self defence. It would be extremely surprising if he opted for the F-35 and said "canada is there day 1, bombing you until you stop"

Lol that ain't him. He specifically said canada doesn't need 1st day strike, aND 1st day=F-35. F-35 is big meanie war plane that will be used to fight and win in battle, clearly he is not interested in such, and is willing to rig the game to see it lose.

Beyond people arguing on the internet, for the 11 countries that are spending billions of dollars on the F-35, all their experts --Government, military, and industry all say F-35 is a no brainer. Its never lost a competition. They are opting for it with major commitments and even publishing their competition and decision results. So for those 12 countries (if you include Canada) that have access to the info, and actually are "in the know" Canada is looking like Flat Earthers. After all they have access to the same numbers everyone else does, the same "Inside look". The RCAF and DND both desire the F-35 and have published numerous studies confirming this. This CF-18 choice is not just about Canada's future but its future relationship with its allies (especially the United States) and its role in the world. It is as AlF18 says purely political, in fact its an ANTI-Military decision. Its deliberately contradicting them and 11 other countries to include the US, Israel, the UK and Australia.

Lastly the F-35 program is "beyond" Canada right now. Canada's 60+ airframes isn't a show stopper, and at this point people would really just rather take their work share. Canada needs F-35 more than F-35 needs it. There won't be a "death spiral" F-35 buyers will pay more, take Canada's work share and thank them for nothing. I can't emphasize enough, because I think it gets lost on the internet commenteriat, that the countries buying this know why they are buying it and what it can do. There is about zero distortion. in internet world its "well its gray amiright?" and in military land its basically black and white. F-35 is head and shoulders above. The only reason the USN is dragging their feet is the cost of the specific F-35C variant, and the demand for Super Hornet attrition replacement. If F-35C were closer in cost, it would be accelerated even more, and of course it is being accelerated just not at the same amount of super hornet buys... yet.

I wish I could say Canada was only hurting itself but it has arrangements with other nations namely JSF, NATO, and NORAD

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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Bang on. The Liberals painted themselves into this corner. When the budget dropped, it was announced that no new military equipment would be purchased until after the next federal election. That's in four years time. Meanwhile, the Super Hornet production line is set up to close at the end of 2017. Someone finally put 2 and 2 together and figured out that the Liberal budget all but eliminated the one plane that they wanted to buy. So, all of a sudden, we have this "fighter gap" and our Hornets need to be replaced now.....this, according to the MND. Now, the word "interim" is getting thrown around in order to justify buying the Super Hornet. Guaranteed, there is nothing interim about buying the Super Hornet. It's all a smoke screen from JT and the Libs.

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Bang on. The Liberals painted themselves into this corner. When the budget dropped, it was announced that no new military equipment would be purchased until after the next federal election. That's in four years time. Meanwhile, the Super Hornet production line is set up to close at the end of 2017. Someone finally put 2 and 2 together and figured out that the Liberal budget all but eliminated the one plane that they wanted to buy. So, all of a sudden, we have this "fighter gap" and our Hornets need to be replaced now.....this, according to the MND. Now, the word "interim" is getting thrown around in order to justify buying the Super Hornet. Guaranteed, there is nothing interim about buying the Super Hornet. It's all a smoke screen from JT and the Libs.

Correction, Trudeau painted himself into a corner.

To think I had him alone in a bathroom, I could have saved the country. My co-workers joke about it all the time. It's all my fault.

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I feel the same about Bob Rae, back when he was the second worst premier of Ontario I was 5 feet from him with fixed bayonet.........Oh the money I could have saved the tax payer.......I think I would have been out by now too.

Course being a medic it would have been my job to save him AFTER I stuck em'. Just can't win.

But its bad form to stab people when your on parade.

Edited by phantom
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There are some folks down here who don't like certain politicians but you Canuks take it to another level! Yikes.

I laughed several times. I shouldn't have but I really did.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
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There are some folks down here who don't like certain politicians but you Canuks take it to another level! Yikes.

Ahhh.....pie to the face was the closet assassination attempt up here. Once a PM is done they must fend for themselves.....and what my right leaning friends won't share is that the Liberals are in name only.....mostly slightly left leaning conservatives. So realistically they do have a more social tendency but very pro business. Mind you the improvement to cpp will be good. Remember the old man brought us CF-18 which was not a fighter that was in service and would be a lemon.....my how 30+ years changes perception.

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Correction, Trudeau painted himself into a corner.

To think I had him alone in a bathroom, I could have saved the country. My co-workers joke about it all the time. It's all my fault.

Gary, you had one job!!! :rolleyes::doh:

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There are some folks down here who don't like certain politicians but you Canuks take it to another level! Yikes.

I lived under one Trudeau, it was a terrible nightmare. I can't believe we are living it again.

I'd trade Trudeau for Trump or Hilliary, despite not liking either of them.

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Well.....I agree about Trudeau as well....But I have to think he is (a wee bit) better then the two the "Mericans have to choose from. Not much better. Fact politics suck all around of late.

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Lmao..... yeah Conservatives in any colour blow dead bears......and I mean politicians. Really center left or even right haven't done the working man any good. No matter what they all are ready to cut their nose off to spite their face.

Blue boys did it as well as our new GQ red boys. Orange would have had F-35 bought. Union made and supports good wages and Canadian work.

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