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Question about seating comfort, esp. ejection seats


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This thought kinda entered my mind tonight. Most all of us know how typically comfortable or not a automobile seat may be especially during long time frame of driving before exiting an automobile. But looking at photos of seats on military aircraft and especially ejection seats, none look to have a lot of padding be they seats in transports, utility aircraft and helicopters, but also combat jet ejection seat the padding looks pretty thin. So how comfortable or not are these seats especially during long flights? Do you air crews get a good case of NUMB BUT and SORE/TIRED BACKS? With us automobile drivers we can stop and get out to stretch, but at 35,000 ft for maybe hours on end how do you all deal with it all?

Thanks in advance.

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Ejection seats are built so the pilot survives not for comfort. In order to survive the high gs and violent acceleration of an ejection the body must be in an optimum position. A fluffy seat cushion isn't very conducive to proper body position, so the seats usually have a very thin cushion. I'm sure there are newer materials available that can satisfy both comfort and pilot survivability, however anything new must be tested. And ejection seat tests are VERY expensive.

That said you bring up a good point about the human factors that have historically been over looked in military aircraft. This area has had more focus with long flights in Afghanistan and now Syria/Iraq. It is a lot to ask of a pilot to sit for hours flying and tanking, and then arrive ready to fight a war.

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After the 4-5+ hour point....your butt starts to get sore, and your lower back starts to hurt. We normally had lumbar cushions we could use, sometimes I wadded up my helmet bag and put it behind my lower back for something extra. On long flights you can loosen your lower straps and try to stretch your legs and lower body a bit. That helps but in the end, you embrace it and suck it up...they aren't meant for comfort.

Cheers

Collin

As Murph wrote below....I have used the inflatable/blow-up donut as well (both ejection seat and non). It was a lifesaver for sure back on some really long events in IRQ/AFGH.

https://www.amazon.com/Dr-Fredericks-Original-Donut-Cushion/dp/B00SPE3JDI?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0

I carried a spare, in case my primary "popped".

Edited by Collin
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Focus and adrenalin probably play a large part in combat situations to alleviate any pain or numbness. Look at racing seats in the highest class race cars. Some of those drivers are in the cars for several hours at a time and there's no cushion whatsoever. LeMans 24 is this weekend where they'll put in 6-8 hours of diving in 24 hour period. Never heard any driver complain of butt soreness!

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The acceleration forces from an ejection seat are such that if the seat cushion is too thick the seat can build up enough speed as the cushion compresses before passing on the acceleration to the occupant that it can cause back damage. For long flights on the ACES seat I used to loosen up the lap belt and use an inflatable donut; if you had to eject you were screwed, but the assumption was that you were only doing it on ferry flights and would have time to get rid of it if you faced an ejection situation. The T-38 seat was about the same in terms of comfort; although, it tended to have more back issues, since the IP would typically run the seat as far up the rail as possible to see the student and particularly where they were looking. The result was pulling G's while hunched over, which does wonders for the lower back.

By far the most miserable seat was the one in the T-33. USAF T-birds used a WW II type parachute that you sat on, rather than the back pack type chute, and after a short time on it you were painfully aware of where the rather large timer was packed inside the chute. If you had to actually use the seat you also had the consolation that the cockpit clearances were so tight you were probably going to break an arm on the canopy rails or a kneecap on the windscreen going up the rails.

Regards,

Murph

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Once upon a time, when I was a flight test engineer at the US Army Aviation Test Board, I volunteered to fly OV-1D flights with an experimental (Decca?) navigation system so I could get ejection seat qualified and fly in our dual-control, SLAR-less Mohawk (we had a Army pilot assigned to us to build up his fixed-wing time; he wanted me to teach him aerobatics in the OV-1 since the Army hadn't included them in his checkout). The test flights involved startup, align the nav system on a specific spot on the ramp, taxi and takeoff, fly a large triangle around three VORs clockwise, repeat counter clockwise, return to base, land, taxi to the alignment spot and take a final record, and then shutdown. Sometimes you'd lose alignment on the taxi out to the runway, which meant you had to return to the spot and align again. I remember that some flights approached four hours from strap-in to dismount.

As Murph said — particularly because this was a bang seat, not a rocket seat which accelerates more slowly — the seat cushion was thin to the point of being non-existent. Think a wooden church pew. You were basically sitting on two spots the size of quarters and because of the harness arrangement, there wasn't much leeway to change the location of the spots. Late in the flight, punching out became a consideration. What's more, taking data at each of several points required lunging forward a few times against the inertia reel to reach the nav system control panel that was over on the left. That left a mark on the shoulders.

However, looping and rolling the OV-1 was worth it...

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Ejection seat design has little to nothing to do with comfort. As stated above by Murph, there are cushion thickness limitations due to acceleration forces on ejection. On long cross-country or combat flights, they are VERY uncomfortable. On short-duration training flights (i.e. about 1.5 hrs or less), you are so busy and moving around so much that you really don't notice the discomfort. I used to come down from BFM (Basic Fighter Manoeuvring) flights soaked in sweat, after twisting around constantly, pulling G, and lots of physical straining and effort.

On refuelling flights across the Atlantic (typically about 6 to 7 hours), we also loosened the straps. Further complicating things was the immersion suit we wore to keep us alive for a few minutes in the cold North Atlantic until we could get into our little dinghy and wait to die from exposure. Those immersion suits came with tight rubberized neck and wrist seals, that pinched off circulation slightly, and became very annoying over the course of several hours. Add to that a rigid condom-style cup that funnelled the urine to a bag strapped onto your leg, and you have a recipe for extreme discomfort. I have rarely had headaches as bad as the ones induced from long-range refuelling missions, where I didn't drink any of my juice en route to avoid having to pee.

One time, arriving in Germany after 7 hours, I saw one of my buddies exit the cockpit looking quite refreshed. He had removed the urine cup after it hurt so badly he couldn't stand it - he unstrapped while flying formation at night on the tanker, unzipped his immersion suit, and disengaged the cup, then got zipped up and strapped in. He peed into his pant leg, and accepted that rather than the pain of the cup. He also took his parachute knife to the seal around his neck, and slit it so that he could breathe more easily. He would have died of exposure in an ejection, but it hurt so much he had stopped caring.

None of this is because of a disregard for human factors in seat and life support equipment design. All of it is due to functional necessity. I know that some of these problems have been addressed over the years since the late 80s when I was regularly flying across the Atlantic in Hornets.

This is why I NEVER complain about commercial airline flight comfort. Fighters are hugely uncomfortable. C-130s are only marginally better, but the flights are longer at the slow speeds. Military jet transport aircraft had no movies or other in-flight entertainment, and smoking was allowed on board when I flew on them. Regardless of how bad an airline is now, it still beats the lack of comfort in jet combat aircraft! :woot.gif:

ALF (AKA the REAL Gordon Shumway) :thumbsup:

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What Murph said...

I never had any complaints with the A-10 ACES II - even after long deployment flights.

In the commercial world - I've been very happy with the Boeing cockpit seats. Conversely - the A319 / A320 were the most uncomfortable I've ever experienced - my back / butt were killing me at the end of the day. I don't know how much difference there is - or options available to the original purchasing airlines.

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Back in 78 to 80 time frame I worked on A-4 and AV-8A seats. Not designed for comfort the A-4 seat pads felt pretty much like cloth covered metal that snapped to a fiberglass seat pan. The Harrier was about an 1 1/2 foam appeared to be more comfortable. I heared stories that the pilots would roll inverted and hang from the straps for a moment for a little relief on cross country flights.

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Follow up question.

On long flights, say transport flights, trans continental or ocean or long combat flights, what kinds of food and drink are you allowed to carry and eat with you?

Oh and if I may for you solo pilots on these long flights, have you ever dozed off flying high and level?

Edited by Gordon Shumway
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Follow up question.

On long flights, say transport flights, trans continental or ocean or long combat flights, what kinds of food and drink are you allowed to carry and eat with you?

Oh and if I may for you solo pilots on these long flights, have you ever dozed off flying high and level?

Pretty much anything that wouldn't get lost in the cracks and crevices around the cockpit was OK. Can't have FOD in the cockpit. On Trans-Atlantic flights they gave us little bags with chunks of chocolate and meat, and a bag with a straw that contained juice; it had some sort of a clamp that prevented it from leaking.

Nope. Never even came close to falling asleep on a transit flight. I think those who flew long combat missions (which I never did) were probably in a more potentially fatigued situation than non-combat transits. We always had the option to say we were not fit to fly if too tired.

ALF

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Follow up question.

On long flights, say transport flights, trans continental or ocean or long combat flights, what kinds of food and drink are you allowed to carry and eat with you?

Oh and if I may for you solo pilots on these long flights, have you ever dozed off flying high and level?

If you can stuff it in a helmet bag or in your flight suit/G-suit pockets....you can eat it. Chili not recommended (it's messy...and when the beans start working in your gut....interesting things happen)...ask how this guy knows. Staying hydrated when sucking on the rubber and the cockpit dry air is probably more important. I've thrown Hot Pockets on the glare shield at launch...and a few hours later I have a yummy hot treat.

Dozed off....never (psst...that's a lie). Best thing of a multi-crew platform is the ability to do that. I've been the only one awake in the cockpit on some long flights while in Japan or cross-country/TRANSPAC. Aircrew learn to take "shallow" naps...meaning you are not really asleep...but your eyes are closed and you are "kinda" napping (I did that a lot in OIF/OEF in that unique flying job). The second the jet/aircraft makes a weird noise, the radio comes to life, or "George/auto-pilot" kicks off...you are awake and your hands are reaching for the controls. I had a 2300-0500 "lets go find the submarines" flight from USS Independence back in 1997-ish. By 0300 I was the only one awake in the jet. TACCO/SENSO were snoring in the back seats (which sucked since the SENSO had the Oreo cookies I was hungry for), pilot next to me was out like a light (he asked me if it was OK to nap before he dozed off). I just flew the plane around keeping the radar up and running (subs hated our radar). About 0430 I woke the pilot up with the aircraft established in the CASE III approach and told him the BOSS says we have a ready deck for landing at 0500...and he took over the flight. Nothing like coming aboard Mom as the sun comes up.

Then there is always this:

http://www.military-history.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/A14RWN.jpg

Cheers

Collin

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He also took his parachute knife to the seal around his neck, and slit it so that he could breathe more easily. He would have died of exposure in an ejection, but it hurt so much he had stopped caring.

I could never tolerate something that tight around my neck, so I always had it unzipped a foot or so down. I figured I'd have time hanging in the chute to zip it back up.

Follow up question.

On long flights, say transport flights, trans continental or ocean or long combat flights, what kinds of food and drink are you allowed to carry and eat with you?

There was usually enough room to stash a small box lunch on one of the side consoles, and once that was empty you could store your used piddle pack in it. Or you could just take along an MRE packet and throw it on the glare shield; after sitting on a black glare shield at 29k for half an hour it got pretty warm. That's how I discovered how truly disgusting the ham omelet MRE was on the way back from Saudi; it looked and smelled like cat food. As far as liquids, we invariably carried a water bottle in the g-suit, plus whatever other drink (which was inevitably non-carbonated) you stashed in the lunch.

Oh and if I may for you solo pilots on these long flights, have you ever dozed off flying high and level?

That's what the "Go pills" were for.

Regards,

Murph

Edited by Murph
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Had a pilot in my Squadron who smoked on a regular basis in the cockpit, he'd even video-tape it and his jet came back with a full astray. O2 and spark are not a good thing. :)

He was the cranky Major on the discovery channels CF-18 program, great guy. Had a lot of chuckles and beers with him.

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Had a pilot in my Squadron who smoked on a regular basis in the cockpit, he'd even video-tape it and his jet came back with a full astray. O2 and spark are not a good thing. :)/>

He was the cranky Major on the discovery channels CF-18 program, great guy. Had a lot of chuckles and beers with him.

Smoking, really? was this sort of stuff more common or more of a rare/one off thing. I'd guess this may have been a more of a thing back when smoking was more common in society. O2 is not a good thing with a spark, a family friend of mine, mother was a smoker with emphysema who just could not quit. Once she burned her chin/mouth by having smoke with the O2 mask just off her face.

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Smoking, really? was this sort of stuff more common or more of a rare/one off thing. I'd guess this may have been a more of a thing back when smoking was more common in society. O2 is not a good thing with a spark, a family friend of mine, mother was a smoker with emphysema who just could not quit. Once she burned her chin/mouth by having smoke with the O2 mask just off her face.

At least one WSO in the 526 TFS at Ramstein in the mid1980s used the front of the rear cockpit sill as his ashtray on cross countries. I saw ashes there on at least a few of our Phantoms during my three years there.

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I was following my pilot back to debriefing following a Green Flag F-16 mission back in the day(91 - 92). It is August in Nevada and hot, actually damn hot! The pilot has his helmet bag thrown over his shoulder and in spite of having sweated out his flight suite he has a fresh wet stain running down his back. I pointed out that his water bottle must be leaking. However, his response is, he does not have a water bottle in his helmet bag only a piddle pack. This is followed by shriek and much to my amazement I learned that a helmet in a helmet bag can be used as a soccer ball.

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I once had a CO who smoked in the jet every flight. He would bring an empty coke can for an ash tray. Complete violation of rules but no one would say anything. He also had booze in the reefer in his stateroom. I took a look see one time when I was sent down there to retrieve something for him.

A far as sleeping....sure, but only during transits or if I were not involved in the mission in any way. When you are on station on the S-3, the SENSO is almost always running the radar unless there is an active sub hunt, in which case the SENSO is monitoring a sonobuoy field and the radar gets shared between the COTAC and TACCO. During my 89 TR cruise, about half of our flights were to tank Hornets and Tomcats, so we were mostly just along for the ride. Of course, at any time we could be retasked to a real mission so we had to be ready for that.

Ah, the good old days.

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Three words that should never be used in the same sentence ejection seat and comfort, unless one had to sit on a seat of nails..then by comparison you will find it a bit more comfortable. :whistle:

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Back flying the KC-135, we had a early morning flight coming off an alert tour - my aircraft commander had a check ride due before we went TDY to RAF Mildenhall, so we got up at some ridiculous hour to change over with the on-coming alert crew, then go fly. I never slept well on alert, it was a strange bed and there was always some kind of noise in the building. We head out to the jet - neither the dining hall in the facility nor the flightline snack bar was open, so no coffee or breakfast, but off we go. We hooked up with another one of our RT-135s so we could both play tanker and receiver on the mission.

We started out as the receiver first time down the A/R track, ran the checklists, made the rendezvous, and moved in for a contact. Now, as a co-pilot on a receiver ride, once the panel was set up, your main duty was to look out the windows at the tanker above you, looking for any dangerous situations. I'm sitting there staring out at the tanker and I doze off...I woke with a bit of a start, and casually looked around the cockpit - the pilot was still flying in contact, and the evaluation pilot (in the jump seat), boom operator, and navigator are all still looking out the windows at the tanker. I check the HSI, and see we had only gone a couple of miles, so I hadn't been out that long - and I was *wide awake* the rest of the flight!

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