Alpagueur Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 was it a slatted wing? As "early" bird I'd say no, but take a look here: http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.it/2014/01/israeli-air-force-sharkmouth-f4-e.html anyone who has some info on his loadout? many thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 was it a slatted wing? As "early" bird I'd say no, but take a look here: http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.it/2014/01/israeli-air-force-sharkmouth-f4-e.html anyone who has some info on his loadout? many thanks. Doubt it had TISEO if it was delivered in '68. I'd say hard wing as well. Loadout could be anything, in YKW, Israel was partial to MK117's but also used MK82's. I think there was a thread or two on this forum that discussed A2G loadouts for these F-4's, try doing a search. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted June 20, 2016 Share Posted June 20, 2016 Kurnass 187 was a slats testbed. In 1971, it was fitted with FIXED leading edge slats and painted with the sharkmouth, and flew in that configuration during the YKW. Photos in the Double Ugly book shows that it retained the fixed slats and sharkmouth as late as 1975. Eventually, it was repainted without the sharkmouth and fitted with the normal slat configuration. If you want to do 187 during the YKW, you'll need slats fixed in the open position. No TISEO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) thanks guys. If you want to do 187 during the YKW, you'll need slats fixed in the open position. inboard, outboard or both? so are the Wingman slatted wings correct for the YKW #187? https://www.victorymodels.com/products/wingman-models-1-32-f-4e-f-g-phantom-slatted-wings-wmf32003 but they have not the inboard leading edge slats opened... where could I find them? TIA. Edited June 21, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 I'm afraid you will have to scratchbuild the fixed deployed slats. They differ from the later version that was widely used on F-4E's, F's and G's. Those were moveable and had slat actuators fitted under the leading edge of the wings, 3 under each wing, like on the F-4F below. All the conversion sets that I know off, let you build a slatted wing with the inboard slats in the stowed position. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCOUT712 Posted June 21, 2016 Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) Pete is right, the fixed slats differed from the movable slats. I have some pics but do not know where I downloaded them. So drop me a PM, I can send the to you. Furthermore Paragon Designs used to have an "Extended Slats conversion" in all three scales. They gave you extended inboard slats with all the actuators but no outboard slats unless for the F-4S set which had both. Did you check also here? http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.com.es/2014/01/israeli-air-force-sharkmouth-f4-e.html This jet had also the Sharkmouth prior to having slats. Cheers Scout Edited June 21, 2016 by SCOUT712 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 21, 2016 Author Share Posted June 21, 2016 (edited) any pics where I can clearly see the difference between fixed and movable inboard slats? for example, is this inboard slat fixed or movable? :unsure: #187 had the same inboard slat? Edited June 21, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) any pics where I can clearly see the difference between fixed and movable inboard slats? for example, is this inboard slat fixed or movable? :unsure:/>/> #187 had the same inboard slat? That's the movable slat locked in the open position, which was relatively rare on the ground. Note that even the outboard slats move. They just don't close completely to lay flush with the wing leading edge like the inboard slats. The photos in the link Scout sent seem to show that the fixed slats were just stuck to the normal hard wing leading edge with short struts. I don't see any actuators. Edited June 22, 2016 by Dave Williams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) The photos in the link Scout sent seem to show that the fixed slats were just stuck to the normal hard wing leading edge with short struts. I don't see any actuators. you mean these affairs? yep, it seems they are fixed thing (with no lower actuators)... where could I find some bigger pics of the real parts? Hoping for Scouts images... Edited June 22, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 is it the same plane? http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4e_kurnass_187/ (fixed or maneuvering) inboard slats? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 mmm... Yom Kippur War, October 1973... and they seems hard wing <_< Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) is it the same plane? http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4e_kurnass_187/ (fixed or maneuvering) inboard slats? Movable. After the war, 187 was refurbished, retrofitted with the normal movable slats, and transferred to 119 squadron where it was just a normal Kurnass. Those photos show 187 in a museum after retirement. Again, 187 was a test bed early in its life. The only details of the fixed slat installation are in pictures and documents of the time, few of which seem publicly available. It was in a very unique configuration at the time of YKW and was the only one that was that way. All the other IAF F-4Es were hard wing at the time. I think the Nickle Grass F-4Es may have been slatted, but would have also been in their normal SEA camo during the war. Edited June 22, 2016 by Dave Williams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrvark Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I have it on good authority that 187 was damaged (by ground fire?) on its first sortie of the war and spend the remainder of the conflict being repaired (or waiting to be repaired). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 There are a few pics here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234981902-israeli-f-4e-question-phantom-expert-needed/?hl=%2Bisraeli+%2Bf-4e scroll down to see some had slats and others didn't, plus TISEO were on replacement F-4s later in the war, still in SEA camo, with Israeli markings. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) many thanks guys. There are a few pics here: http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234981902-israeli-f-4e-question-phantom-expert-needed/?hl=%2Bisraeli+%2Bf-4e Are those bombs SUU-30B/B? what's the name of this pod? It seems a "longered" ALQ-87 (or -71?)... :blink: Edited June 22, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 22, 2016 Author Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) A technical question... apart from operational using... with the TER fully loaded (3x Mk.117 other than 3x SUU-30) and the two sidwinders above, did the fins of the missiles touch the bomb's body? I've noticed that it lacks always one bomb on the corresponding side of the AIM-9, and it lacks one AIM-9 on the corresponding side of the Mk.117 but I was wondering if it depended by the physical contact between the AIM-9's fins and the body of the bomb or whatever they could drop the bomb before launching the Sidewinder? Edited June 22, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tony.t Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 IIRC there is at least one b&w close-up of the welded LES in the Aerofax F-4E book. HTH Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 IIRC there is at least one b&w close-up of the welded LES in the Aerofax F-4E book. HTH Tony That's true, but the photo in the Aerofax Minigraph is of the US Agile Eagle I slats testbed 66-284, which was modified about a year after Kurnass 187. It's not clear that they were the same and in fact 66-284 added at least one dummy actuator fairing shape for aerodynamic testing. 66-284 also tested a bunch of different slat configurations whereas I suspect Kurnass 187's testing was severely curtailed by its damage during the YKW. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CF104 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 mmm... Yom Kippur War, October 1973... and they seems hard wing <_</>/> 179 is a hard wing and 122 is slatted. Cheers, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 To answer the questions asked above, yes they are SUU-30B/B CBUs and the ECM pod looks to be a ALQ-71(V)-4 which had a length of 124". As for the Sidewinder and bombs, they normally wouldn't touch (depending on the size of the bomb) but there could be contact if the AIM-9 was fired so the bomb(s) would have to be dropped first. So in that case they would usually leave the station empty that may interfere with the Sidewinder firing. Also it looks like they normally kept the missile launchers on even if they didn't load any AIM-9s as the next mission may require Sidewinders and it's easier to load missiles than install the launchers first and then the missiles. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) but there could be contact if the AIM-9 was fired so the bomb(s) would have to be dropped first. in fact they used to sacrificed a bomb in that case 179 is a hard wing and 122 is slatted. you're right John, now I can see the actuators on the port wing Edited June 23, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 mmm... Yom Kippur War, October 1973... and they seems hard wing <_</> I'd question whether that photo was actually taken during the YKW but it's your kit, build it how you want. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
4scourge7 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 From available reference (such as Shlomo Aloni`s `Israeli F-4E Phantom Aces`), it would appear that Israeli F-4E were appearing with slats as early as May 1973 (possibly earlier), and that several F-4E with slats were in service at the outbreak of the October war, both conversions and new deliveries from the U.S (Peace Echo IV). This meant a mix of slatted and unslatted F-4E in service at the outbreak of war, further augmented by the Nickel Grass deliveries of aircraft, still in their USAF camo, later in the war. Cheers, Ian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 I'd question whether that photo was actually taken during the YKW mm... I tjink not <_< Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alpagueur Posted June 23, 2016 Author Share Posted June 23, 2016 (edited) This meant a mix of slatted and unslatted F-4E in service at the outbreak of war, further augmented by the Nickel Grass deliveries of aircraft, still in their USAF camo, later in the war. I think #187 was a fix-slatted wing... but how to reproduce those fixed "actuators"? Paragon/Wingman/Cutting are movable only... Edited June 23, 2016 by Alpagueur Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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