Jump to content

I.D.F. F-4E "Sabretooth #187" (1973 Yom Kippur war )


Recommended Posts

89_7.jpg

000ee0be_zpsb0f61222.jpg

was it a slatted wing? As "early" bird I'd say no, but take a look here:

http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.it/2014/01/israeli-air-force-sharkmouth-f4-e.html

anyone who has some info on his loadout? many thanks.

Doubt it had TISEO if it was delivered in '68. I'd say hard wing as well. Loadout could be anything, in YKW, Israel was partial to MK117's but also used MK82's. I think there was a thread or two on this forum that discussed A2G loadouts for these F-4's, try doing a search.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kurnass 187 was a slats testbed. In 1971, it was fitted with FIXED leading edge slats and painted with the sharkmouth, and flew in that configuration during the YKW. Photos in the Double Ugly book shows that it retained the fixed slats and sharkmouth as late as 1975. Eventually, it was repainted without the sharkmouth and fitted with the normal slat configuration.

If you want to do 187 during the YKW, you'll need slats fixed in the open position. No TISEO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks guys.

If you want to do 187 during the YKW, you'll need slats fixed in the open position.

inboard, outboard or both?

so are the Wingman slatted wings correct for the YKW #187?

https://www.victorymodels.com/products/wingman-models-1-32-f-4e-f-g-phantom-slatted-wings-wmf32003

but they have not the inboard leading edge slats opened... where could I find them? TIA.

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm afraid you will have to scratchbuild the fixed deployed slats. They differ from the later version that was widely used on F-4E's, F's and G's. Those were moveable and had slat actuators fitted under the leading edge of the wings, 3 under each wing, like on the F-4F below. All the conversion sets that I know off, let you build a slatted wing with the inboard slats in the stowed position.

P6292723_zpsvvnpqtiw.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pete is right, the fixed slats differed from the movable slats. I have some pics but do not know where I downloaded them. So drop me a PM, I can send the to you.

Furthermore Paragon Designs used to have an "Extended Slats conversion" in all three scales. They gave you extended inboard slats with all the actuators but no outboard slats unless for the F-4S set which had both.

Did you check also here? http://edokunscalemodelingpage.blogspot.com.es/2014/01/israeli-air-force-sharkmouth-f4-e.html

This jet had also the Sharkmouth prior to having slats.

Cheers

Scout

Edited by SCOUT712
Link to post
Share on other sites

any pics where I can clearly see the difference between fixed and movable inboard slats?

for example, is this inboard slat fixed or movable? :unsure:

25.jpg

#187 had the same inboard slat?

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

any pics where I can clearly see the difference between fixed and movable inboard slats?

for example, is this inboard slat fixed or movable? :unsure:/>/>

25.jpg

#187 had the same inboard slat?

That's the movable slat locked in the open position, which was relatively rare on the ground. Note that even the outboard slats move. They just don't close completely to lay flush with the wing leading edge like the inboard slats.

The photos in the link Scout sent seem to show that the fixed slats were just stuck to the normal hard wing leading edge with short struts. I don't see any actuators.

Edited by Dave Williams
Link to post
Share on other sites
The photos in the link Scout sent seem to show that the fixed slats were just stuck to the normal hard wing leading edge with short struts. I don't see any actuators.

you mean these affairs?

6svsep.jpg

yep, it seems they are fixed thing (with no lower actuators)... where could I find some bigger pics of the real parts?

Hoping for Scouts images...

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

is it the same plane?

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_gershman/f-4e_kurnass_187/

(fixed or maneuvering) inboard slats?

Movable. After the war, 187 was refurbished, retrofitted with the normal movable slats, and transferred to 119 squadron where it was just a normal Kurnass. Those photos show 187 in a museum after retirement.

Again, 187 was a test bed early in its life. The only details of the fixed slat installation are in pictures and documents of the time, few of which seem publicly available. It was in a very unique configuration at the time of YKW and was the only one that was that way. All the other IAF F-4Es were hard wing at the time. I think the Nickle Grass F-4Es may have been slatted, but would have also been in their normal SEA camo during the war.

Edited by Dave Williams
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have it on good authority that 187 was damaged (by ground fire?) on its first sortie of the war and spend the remainder of the conflict being repaired (or waiting to be repaired).

Link to post
Share on other sites

many thanks guys.

Are those bombs SUU-30B/B?

29586107.jpg

what's the name of this pod? It seems a "longered" ALQ-87 (or -71?)... :blink:

37379289.jpg

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

A technical question...

apart from operational using... with the TER fully loaded (3x Mk.117 other than 3x SUU-30) and the two sidwinders above, did the fins of the missiles touch the bomb's body?

I've noticed that it lacks always one bomb on the corresponding side of the AIM-9, and it lacks one AIM-9 on the corresponding side of the Mk.117

313pvzk.jpg

but I was wondering if it depended by the physical contact between the AIM-9's fins and the body of the bomb or whatever they could drop the bomb before launching the Sidewinder?

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

IIRC there is at least one b&w close-up of the welded LES in the Aerofax F-4E book.

HTH

Tony

That's true, but the photo in the Aerofax Minigraph is of the US Agile Eagle I slats testbed 66-284, which was modified about a year after Kurnass 187. It's not clear that they were the same and in fact 66-284 added at least one dummy actuator fairing shape for aerodynamic testing. 66-284 also tested a bunch of different slat configurations whereas I suspect Kurnass 187's testing was severely curtailed by its damage during the YKW.

Link to post
Share on other sites

To answer the questions asked above, yes they are SUU-30B/B CBUs and the ECM pod looks to be a ALQ-71(V)-4 which had a length of 124". As for the Sidewinder and bombs, they normally wouldn't touch (depending on the size of the bomb) but there could be contact if the AIM-9 was fired so the bomb(s) would have to be dropped first. So in that case they would usually leave the station empty that may interfere with the Sidewinder firing. Also it looks like they normally kept the missile launchers on even if they didn't load any AIM-9s as the next mission may require Sidewinders and it's easier to load missiles than install the launchers first and then the missiles.

Jari

Link to post
Share on other sites
but there could be contact if the AIM-9 was fired so the bomb(s) would have to be dropped first.

in fact they used to sacrificed a bomb in that case

179 is a hard wing and 122 is slatted.

you're right John, now I can see the actuators on the port wing :thumbsup:

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

From available reference (such as Shlomo Aloni`s `Israeli F-4E Phantom Aces`), it would appear that Israeli F-4E were appearing with slats as early as May 1973 (possibly earlier), and that several F-4E with slats were in service at the outbreak of the October war, both conversions and new deliveries from the U.S (Peace Echo IV).

This meant a mix of slatted and unslatted F-4E in service at the outbreak of war, further augmented by the Nickel Grass deliveries of aircraft, still in their USAF camo, later in the war.

Cheers, Ian

Link to post
Share on other sites
This meant a mix of slatted and unslatted F-4E in service at the outbreak of war, further augmented by the Nickel Grass deliveries of aircraft, still in their USAF camo, later in the war.

I think #187 was a fix-slatted wing... but how to reproduce those fixed "actuators"? Paragon/Wingman/Cutting are movable only...

Edited by Alpagueur
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...