I.D.F. F-4E "Sabretooth #187" (1973 Yom Kippur war )

[SCOUT712]

Airdoc did some nice booklets, one was dedicated to 107 Sqd. they apparently had 122 on loan during Yom Kippur. IIRC it was on of the all time high IDF/AF Mig Killers (5 or 7 kills) Later it was lost in a training mid air. And yes they flew mixed Slat non slat jets. Even some in US Camo, which were hastily delivered as attrition replacement. Osprey I think says, these jets were flown by US crews to Israel, once they laded the David Star was painted over the US insignia while the jets were bombed up and refueled and them they went directly off to war with Israeli crews.

Regarding the fixed slats attachments. I'll hope I can send you a front area view of 62-200 and I would just cut in the leading edge of the wing, glue in some styrene and that's it. I'll try to look if I find some spare outboard Revell wings with slats. the inboard slats can be done with the forward part of the upper wing half.

Cheers

Scout

[Finn]

Here is 187 most likely later on in it's life with the slats:

note the Pave Spike and LGB.

Jari

[Alpagueur]

Thanks Scout and Finn... which type of pod was mounted on the port fwd sparrow bay of the #187 during YKW?

[SCOUT712]

I looked into my spares box. Unfortunetely I cannot provide you with Revell outboard wings. I can however send you some LAU-7 Sidewinder launch rails. The IDF/AF used these instead of the Aero 3B rails (found in the Tamiya kit) since they used AIM-9D as the USN.

I cannot answer you the question on the POD it´s either an ALQ-71 or ALQ-87, but in a config. which covers more frequency bands, therefore longer than what you´ll find in the Tamiya kit. A short ALQ-71 can be found in Trumpeters F-105 kit or aftermarket cutting edge. Keep in mind, that the IDF/AF lots of times carried a KB-18 strike camera in the right forward sparrow well.

Cheers

Scout

[Alpagueur]

I can however send you some LAU-7 Sidewinder launch rails. The IDF/AF used these instead of the Aero 3B rails (found in the Tamiya kit) since they used AIM-9D as the USN.

thanks Scout. Python 3 on the port fwd sparrow bay was ever used in the YKW? Otherwise an ALQ-71 is the better solution I think.

Edited June 24, 2016 by Alpagueur

[Dave Williams]

P3 was long after YKW. Also, the Sparrow well adapter didn't come until the 80s when the Kurnass started carrying large weapons like Popeye that completely blocked the wing pylon rails.

[Alpagueur]

P3 was long after YKW. Also, the Sparrow well adapter didn't come until the 80s when the Kurnass started carrying large weapons like Popeye that completely blocked the wing pylon rails.

thanks Dave. what about an ALQ-71?

[Dave Williams]

ALQ-71 was definitely used on IAF F-4s during YKW. Fairly common.

[SCOUT712]

Hello Gianluca,

sorry it took a bit longer.

Attached you´ll find 2 pics. First shows the fixed slat config on the USAF Testbed. Of notice is that there were 4 attachments instead of the later 3 actuators on the inboard slat. Also no fairings under the inboard wings.

On the second pic you see 187 on final approach. Note that the flaps are deplyed to an angle which was common to Navy F4 J only (i think) but the ailerons do not drop. Regular air force F4 flaps did not deploy all the way down like on that jet. It seems though that the pic is taken when 187 already had moveable slats, since the outboard slats are not seperated as much as on the fixed config pics I sent you via PM already.

Hope it helps!

BTW. Both pics copyright World Airpower Journal, edited John Lake, McDonnel F-4 PHANTOM Spirit in the Skies

Scout

[Dave Williams]

I think that photo shows 187 with the fixed slats. I don't see the actuators on the outboard panels and all the info I've ever seen indicate that 187 only had the fixed slats while it carried the sharkmouth.

[Alpagueur]

thanks for the info Scout and Dave! so could you help me to locate these fixed "actuators" on the wing edge? (with simple red lines if possible, just to identify number and positions along the leading edge). In the 1st foto on the WAPJ they are in the shade and do not come through...

Edited June 26, 2016 by Alpagueur

[mrvark]

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here, and happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. In about 1980, I had a discussion with the guy who was the USAF Air Attache to Israel either during or immediately after the '73 war. According to him, 187 was probably a LES test asset even before the USAF began testing them--so it MAY have been the first LES jet. Again, according to my recollection of this discussion, 187 was the ONLY LES jet to participate in that conflict and was damaged during its first sortie and spent the remainder of the war being repaired.

[Dave Williams]

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here, and happy to be corrected if I'm wrong. In about 1980, I had a discussion with the guy who was the USAF Air Attache to Israel either during or immediately after the '73 war. According to him, 187 was probably a LES test asset even before the USAF began testing them--so it MAY have been the first LES jet. Again, according to my recollection of this discussion, 187 was the ONLY LES jet to participate in that conflict and was damaged during its first sortie and spent the remainder of the war being repaired.

That matches what's in the Aerofax Minigraph on the F-4E, that the USAF/MDD made their own testbed based on the data they were getting from the IAF's testing of 187. My impression is that 187 tested the concept and the US testbeds were used to refine the actual design that lead to the production LES system.

[hemspilot]

On 6/26/2016 at 12:25 PM, Dave Williams said:

I think that photo shows 187 with the fixed slats. I don't see the actuators on the outboard panels and all the info I've ever seen indicate that 187 only had the fixed slats while it carried the sharkmouth.

 

I agree.