adamitri Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I know we have some contest judges around here somewhere , but can you all give us the low down on what exactly judges look for at a competition ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Well a good judge will look at the basics first, from the inside out, seam work, alignment, canopy, canopy attachment, then finish work is judged last, paint application and decals. Allot of subjects are eliminated before we even get to paint and decals, due to sloppy construction, regardless of how spectacular a paint job they may have done on it. You can go to the IPMS web-site and find the judges hand book on how a contest should be judged. Curt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kurt H. Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Netz summed it up pretty well. I used judged a few times when I was an active IPMS member. I was always taught to look for the basics first, seams, cleanliness of construction, and alignment. The one thing that sticks out in my mind that I remember was not to worry too much about the paint color unless blatantly wrong, like a " a blue angels plane painted red" If you go to a local show you can typically get a chance to judge if you want to give it a try. I learned a lot by listening to the more experienced judges. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scotthldr Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The one thing that sticks out in my mind that I remember was not to worry too much about the paint color Which is one of the points that I could/can't get my head round. I once seen a F/A-18C "Chippy-Ho" which was built pretty good but the colour was so off(I would guess 36176, yes it was that dark!!). The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, so getting the colour right in my book should play a far more important factor than the current rules allow. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zark Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I dont know if it is relevant,...but...in my local club, during competitions judges are all the contestants, thet fill up a form secretly voting which models should be awarded...it works fine the past seven years, everybody is happy and we never ever had any complains. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
82Whitey51 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, so getting the colour right in my book should play a far more important factor than the current rules allow. Yes, agree...and weathering too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Which is one of the points that I could/can't get my head round. I once seen a F/A-18C "Chippy-Ho" which was built pretty good but the colour was so off(I would guess 36176, yes it was that dark!!). The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, so getting the colour right in my book should play a far more important factor than the current rules allow. I understand completely what you're saying. Here's a bit of a different perspective. If a modeler is good enough to take care of the basics and pay attention to detail, they usually get the colors correct. However, they may not know a lot about a subject but want to build it because it's interesting. I've built a couple of German fighters. I don't have a clue if I got the colors correct or not. :D Pictures also can lead to mistakes. I was at a contest a few years back where a 1/72 scale Cutlass was painted with Light Ghost Gray instead of Gull Gray. I immediately saw the error because I build Navy aircraft. However, it was beautifully built and won its category. In its defense, I've seen pictures of Gull Gray/White Navy planes that in certain instances look like Light Ghost Gray. Maybe he went off a picture. I don't know. In the end, I think IPMS went the way they did because it takes as much subjectivity out of judging as possible. A seam is a seam and a crooked landing gear is a crooked landing gear. There's no arguing that. Colors (if they are close to what they should be) can be very subjective. And then there's weathering. That's a whole different ball game! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Which is one of the points that I could/can't get my head round. I once seen a F/A-18C "Chippy-Ho" which was built pretty good but the colour was so off(I would guess 36176, yes it was that dark!!). The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, so getting the colour right in my book should play a far more important factor than the current rules allow. The problem with that is what happens when a judge knows the color or one subject is slightly wrong because they know the subject well, but has no clue that another jet on the table may be WAAAY off because they aren't familiar with that jet's colors? You're asking for a judge to make a call based on limited information. It would be an unfair advantage to lesser known type aircraft simply because the judges knew more about one than the other. I had to push this issue a couple of times judging, once when a fellow judge was going to pass on one Sherman and pick a Panzer IV as 1st because they knew the Sherman wasn't the correct shade of green. I finally had to ask if he knew if the Panzer was the proper color for its markings or not. He didn't know. So then how can he pick based on that biased information because he was a Sherman "expert"? Building flaws are the only thing that aren't as subjective as paint color, detail placement etc... Model BUILDING is whatever the modeler wishes it to be, be it a representation of real life or a twisted view of life, or a what-if or whatever. We don't have to agree with the builders vision. But in judging we can all agree on whether it was accomplished well using good basic building techniques. That's my 2 cents anyway. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
boom175 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 Here is a link to some IPMS USA contest info. http://www.ipmsusa.org/competition_handbook/CompHandbook2002.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, No it isn't. Your whole point of scale modelling is that you are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form. Other people have different reasons. The guy who won best in show at the 2013 Nats, for instance, would disagree: Although, *grossly* incorrect colours (like a red Blue Angels plane) are a moot point anyway - they get bumped to the miscellaneous category in an IPMS contest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 The guy who won best in show at the 2013 Nats, for instance, would disagree: Man! I just have to comment on this model! That is one of the coolest things I've seen on a contest table! Beautiful design and very well executed. It looks a lot like something the designer Daniel Simon would come up with. He's the guy who did the car for "The League or Extraordinary Gentlemen" as well for Red Skulls car for "Captain America". I would love to see a build up on this thing. Ok, sorry for the interruption. it was just too pretty to let slide by without commenting. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Tapsell Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 (edited) Man! I just have to comment on this model! That is one of the coolest things I've seen on a contest table! Beautiful design and very well executed. It looks a lot like something the designer Daniel Simon would come up with. He's the guy who did the car for "The League or Extraordinary Gentlemen" as well for Red Skulls car for "Captain America". I would love to see a build up on this thing. Ok, sorry for the interruption. it was just too pretty to let slide by without commenting. Bill If you frequent Facebook, check out the builder's page (Stefano Marchetti) https://www.facebook.com/stefano.marchetti.104 Also his 'Ucronic Age' Facebook page that covers some of the 'history' and also other builds he's done. https://www.facebook.com/ucronicage/ The Bugatti was Stefano's second Best of Show at Scale ModelWorld - the previous year he won with a Steampunk unicycle. Regards, John Edited June 22, 2016 by John Tapsell Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Tapsell Posted June 22, 2016 Share Posted June 22, 2016 I know we have some contest judges around here somewhere , but can you all give us the low down on what exactly judges look for at a competition ? As others have said - we judge the basics first. People ask why - well if you're judging a category of single-engined (piston) fighters for example, you're going to get a whole range of different subjects and kits competing against each other. No judge will be an expert in all of them. I could discuss some kits (and subjects) for hours on end because I've built them and they interest me, but it would be unfair of me to apply the same level of scrutiny to kits I've never built. The only common denominator across all the subjects is how well they are constructed, so that is where the evaluation starts - joints, seams, alignment, glue stains etc. It's surprising how often an otherwise excellent model has wings that aren't properly aligned or undercarriage legs that don't sit correctly. As a builder, you need to get the basics right before you worry about the finish, the decals and the weathering. That's assuming you wish to be a contestant. If not, then build what you like, however you like it and enjoy the experience (which is ultimately what the hobby is all about). Regards, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Neptune48 Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 Which is one of the points that I could/can't get my head round. I once seen a F/A-18C "Chippy-Ho" which was built pretty good but the colour was so off(I would guess 36176, yes it was that dark!!). The whole point of scale modelling is that we are trying to replicate something that exists in scale form, so getting the colour right in my book should play a far more important factor than the current rules allow. The issue is this: in order to judge a category fairly, the judges must work to the same level of knowledge regarding every model subject in that category. For instance, in order to judge if a color is the exactly correct shade for a particular jet, the judges would need to have encyclopedic knowledge of the correct shade of every example of every aircraft type that could be entered in that category. Therefore, judges are taught to ignore that and concentrate on workmanship. Color might come into play as a tie breaker if two models are so closely matched in all other aspects that there is no other way to select, but it requires specific knowledge on the part of the judges if they are doing it right. If you do have something on your model that seems way off, you can protect yourself from the self-appointed expert judge by supplying documentation. For instance, there was an AT-6 at Luke AFB in the early 40s that had the national insignia upside down, but I wouldn't enter a model of it in a contest without a photo to back it up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon20driver Posted June 23, 2016 Share Posted June 23, 2016 How is technology changing this? Example: I saw the most beautiful 1/48 Scale F-4 lose the best overall award because a judge claimed it's markings were incorrect for that painting job. It was wearing gull grey when it should have had another color. The judging group then Googled it on their phones and presto, not a winner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 Those judges are garbage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gb_madcat_sl Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) Those judges are garbage. Kindly explain. From the IPMS National Contest Rules, Part II Section 1. "Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, and scope of effort; accuracy may be used as a criteria for determining final ranking for similar model subjects." Mark Edited June 24, 2016 by gb_madcat_sl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) In 20 years of Judging I have never had to determine a winner on paint color.... As mentioned above,the judges I'm sure had missed something that could have been a deciding factor before they had to Google to make a decision.... "Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, and scope of effort; accuracy may be used as a criteria for determining final ranking for similar model subjects." If they could not determine an outcome within the 1st two criteria,scope of effort I feel should be next then realism, and as stated accuracy is last. Not all judges are good, I had the opportunity to judge at a National Convention,and I was not too impressed with the IPMS seasoned judge I was paired with (we butted heads on the scope of effort). Curt Edited June 24, 2016 by Netz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Darren Roberts Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 In 20 years of Judging I have never had to determine a winner on paint color.... As mentioned above,the judges I'm sure had missed something that could have been a deciding factor before they had to Google to make a decision.... "Models will be judged for skill in construction, finish, realism, and scope of effort; accuracy may be used as a criteria for determining final ranking for similar model subjects." If they could not determine an outcome within the 1st two criteria,scope of effort I feel should be next then realism, and as stated accuracy is last. Not all judges are good, I had the opportunity to judge at a National Convention,and I was not too impressed with the IPMS seasoned judge I was paired with (we butted heads on the scope of effort). Curt This^^^^ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon20driver Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 An interesting trend I've noticed at the tiny (3) amount of contest I've been to is that certain kits tend to win more. Hasegawa A-4s, Tamiya F-16s, etc... The kits we all know go together really well win more. I know that's kind of a "no crap" kind of statement but one I never realized until recently. I wish there was some way to earn extra points for battling those hard kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cyrus Tan Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 (edited) An interesting trend I've noticed at the tiny (3) amount of contest I've been to is that certain kits tend to win more. Hasegawa A-4s, Tamiya F-16s, etc... The kits we all know go together really well win more. I know that's kind of a "no crap" kind of statement but one I never realized until recently.I wish there was some way to earn extra points for battling those hard kits. I've competed my models at the Nationals several times and in my experience Tamiya and Hasegawa kits don't necessarily win if there is a well built model of the same subject on the table made from an inferior kit. Judges actually do consider extra effort so long as it's well executed. I imagine this is the reason why we have to write down the kit manufacturer and any aftermarket parts used including scratch built items on the entry form. If there are construction flaws on your model then your extra effort won't matter as far as I know. So if you want to earn extra points, your model has to be virtually flawless to place at a contest. Cyrus Edited June 24, 2016 by Cyrus Tan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AndrewPerren Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 One thing I can tell you is Judging can be a brutal, thankless and tiring task - but it can really improve your own modelling standards. We recently had the Australian Model Expo here in Melbourne - kind of like your US Nats competition and judging is based on an IPMS style criteria. Construction / Finish / Attention to detail & effort make up the bulk of the score. Get those right you're in with a good chance. Do the basics and do them well. I've judged the last 10 years (and seen some iffy decisions), but on the whole the process works and if the judges follow it then an acceptable result is usually given. It's an unfortunate fact of life that when you have to cull a large category to 1st 2nd 3rd etc, you're going to have to be harsh in your standards. Every kid wins a prize ended at under 10's football. Regarding colours - the judge who believes he knows the correct colour for every subject at a model show is best avoided, only the most arrogant fool would think like that. If there is reference supplied to match the model then you cannot call it inaccurate. You are not there to judge by your personal tastes or "knowledge". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jgrease Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 I've judged one contest, and to be quite honest, there is usually one stand-out build in a category. When there is more than one build that are comparable in finish, then you move on to the details and accuracy. I judged about five categories with my group (it was a large show) and I can seriously tell you that if you build neatly, covering the basics and doing things carefully, you'll do well. And unless you really knock it out of the park, I'd stay away from the "standards" - Bf 109s, P-51s, etc since they tend to blend into the background. Unusual subjects or standout finishes definitely get attention from the judges. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
falcon20driver Posted June 24, 2016 Share Posted June 24, 2016 This has been really informative. Thanks guys, I believe I'll volunteer to judge at my next contest and hopefully learn some good techniques. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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