ANG T-33 colors in these photos

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Ran across these two photos of a Vermont ANG T-33 that crashed in April 1961:

 

Wondering three things:

1) Would the outer surfaces of the wingtip tanks DayGlo orange, or would something else be standard for an ANG T-33 in 1961?

2) Black anti-glare shield or OD? (I'm guessing black)

3) Color of the tail tip--probably an impossible question, but wondering if anyone had any good guesses. My only hints are that the aircraft the unit flew until 1958 (F-94B) was trimmed in yellow, but the F-89's they flew in the mid 60's were trimmed with red. Not sure about the early F-89 years, which is part of the problem. Somewhere along the line they changed and I figure this T-33 would presumably have its tail tipped in one of those two colors.

I welcome your combined wisdom and insight! :)

Edited October 11, 2016 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy

[Murph]

Wondering three things:

1) Would the outer surfaces of the wingtip tanks DayGlo orange, or would something else be standard for an ANG T-33 in 1961?

2) Black anti-glare shield or OD? (I'm guessing black)

3) Color of the tail tip--probably an impossible question, but wondering if anyone had any good guesses. My only hints are that the aircraft the unit flew until 1958 (F-94B) was trimmed in yellow, but the F-89's they flew in the mid 60's were trimmed with red. Not sure about the early F-89 years, which is part of the problem. Somewhere along the line they changed and I figure this T-33 would presumably have its tail tipped in one of those two colors.

I welcome your combined wisdom and insight! :)/>

1) Most likely Dayglo Orange.

2) Black.

3) Since the jet is still in natural metal it's possible it's unpainted, so it would be a medium gray, somewhere around 26473 (semi-gloss ADC Gray).

Regards,

Murph

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

3) Since the jet is still in natural metal it's possible it's unpainted, so it would be a medium gray, somewhere around 26473 (semi-gloss ADC Gray).

Interesting...never considered that possibility, but as you point out, the fact that the rest of the plane is unpainted is a compelling argument.

Was starting to lean toward red since the shade seems to match the red turbine warning stripe, but now you've got me thinking otherwise.

Only thing that's got me second-guessing that is that it does seem awfully dark.

Thanks Murph!

Edited September 5, 2016 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy

[Drifterdon]

Andrew,

Something else to chew on.... While looking at the second pic from the left side of the aircraft, it appears that there is a paint demarcation line running the length of the fuselage. Look at the intake ramps and you can see where it's a darker shade. It almost appears as if the underside of the plane has been painted some shade of grey or corruguard while the upper is still natural aluminum. And I believe from this photo that the outside of the tip tank is probably orange or red. Definitely darker in color than the undersides.

On second thought, after going back and looking again, it may be the same color as the underside.

Found story of this aircraft accident here. http://tommillington.net/?page_id=1527

Edited September 6, 2016 by Drifterdon

[Murph]

Andrew,

Something else to chew on.... While looking at the second pic from the left side of the aircraft, it appears that there is a paint demarcation line running the length of the fuselage. Look at the intake ramps and you can see where it's a darker shade. It almost appears as if the underside of the plane has been painted some shade of grey or corruguard while the upper is still natural aluminum. And I believe from this photo that the outside of the tip tank is probably orange or red. Definitely darker in color than the undersides.

On second thought, after going back and looking again, it may be the same color as the underside.

Found story of this aircraft accident here. http://tommillington.net/?page_id=1527

Excellent point; I think the second photo has been altered. If you look at the photo there is a sharp demarcation line under the aft fuselage that would make you think there's a paint line there that magically gets feathered under the "star and bars" and disappears entirely further forward. Additionally, the tail shows markings that are partially erased that aren't on the other side of the vertical tail in the first photo. Finally, the dielectric panel on the second photo is way darker than on the first photo. I wouldn't trust that second photo.

Regards,

Murph

[Ben Brown]

Could the belly be white, like the T-Bird at the Hazy Center? It definitely looks painted.

Ben

Edited September 6, 2016 by Ben Brown

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Wellll....I've blown up the first photo and the erased "ANG" is there on the tail, just really, really hard to see, but I can see it without much trouble when I make it larger....

[P-38 guy]

Could that be Dayglo on the bottom (just to the fuselage break) and forward of the intake?

Mike

[P-38 guy]

Ok so I used a trick I use on my old original WWII photo's to pull out detail. I changed them to a negative image. Maybe this will help some.

Mike

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Honestly, what if that's just the shadowy portion of a shiny aluminum airframe? Plus keep in mind the lighting wouldn't be the same on both sides. Just a thought.

[Dutch]

Andrew,

I am getting back to the forums after a long break and your topic piqued my interest.  I have an interest in the neighboring unit during the similar period; the 133rd FIS of the New Hampshire Air Guard.  I agree with Murph, the outer portion of the wing tanks are most definitely Day-Glo Orange, if the 133rd T-33s can be a guide.  Again, I agree with Murph in thinking that the tip of the vertical tail is probably the dull gray di-electric panel as seen on countless T-33s,somewhere in the neighborhood of ADC Gray, but slightly darker. The anti-glare panel is almost assuredly flat black. I have seen Active and ANG F-86D/Ls with both olive drab & flat black AG panels, but AFAIK, T-33s had flat black AG panels.  As to the lower fuselage color demarcation line evident in the second photo, I believe it is just shadow. Most standard unit T-33s were left overall natural metal or later painted in overall ADC Gray. I have recently seen a photo of a NH ANG F-86L with a NH ANG T-33A in the background (circa 1958-1960).  The T-33 is in natural metal finish with Day-Glo Orange on the outside of the tip tanks.

HTH!

R/ Dutch

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Hullo Dutch! Neat to have "neighboring" interests!  

 

Yes, I mostly concur with all you've mentioned.

On the other hand, when the forums went down I did carry the discussion to another reputed site (although there's no place like Home!) and two things arose from there which changed my view.

 

First, that the tail tip is REALLY dark compared to the usual gray tail tip, and in fact the shade seems to be almost the same as the red stripe on the fuselage...and red is what the F-89's they flew at the same time were trimmed with. 

 

Second, although I was firmly in the "it's a shadow" camp in regards to the underside, many photos began to emerge showing ANG T-33's with ADC undersides. Comparing those to the photos above swayed my opinion totally the other week after about a week of internal arguing. Here's one example of ADC undersides on a DC ANG bird, although the pattern isn't the same around the intakes; otherwise it is strikingly the same:

[Dutch]

Andrew,

Yes, I agree that this DC ANG T-33 has ADC gray undersides starting aft of the nose gear doors, but when was the photo taken?  The ANG shield badge on the tail wasn't introduced until the mid 1970's, so still inconclusive as to painting your VT ANG T-33 underside circa 1959.  In your original photos, the underside of the horizontal stabs is of similar hue, you can even see the reflection on the upper curve of the tailpipe.  Personally, I still think it is merely shadow on the b&w film.  HTH!

R/ Dutch

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

I know, it's enough to drive me insane....why can't I just stick to simple stuff like Tomcats?

[Drifterdon]

15 hours ago, Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy said:

I know, it's enough to drive me insane....why can't I just stick to simple stuff like Tomcats?

Tomcats are simple?  

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Just now, Drifterdon said:

Tomcats are simple?  

 

LOL

Compared with this other stuff where reference material is as rare as teeth on a hen? Definitely! :D 

[Grey Ghost 531]

It's just shadow. The photo was taken in the winter with overcast skies. The light is very "flat" and makes the shadow look odd. The DC bird is very highly polished and the bottom is just reflecting the color of the concrete. IMHO anyway. Clearly the bottom of the DC bird is painted light gray, anybody could see that!

Edited October 14, 2016 by Grey Ghost 531

[Slartibartfast]

I disagree about the DC ship. There is a very definite change in luster in the gray area. Look at the gear doors.

Edited October 13, 2016 by Slartibartfast

[CF104]

2 hours ago, Grey Ghost 531 said:

The DC bird is very highly polished and the bottom is just reflecting the color of the concrete. IMHO anyway.

The DC bird is actually preserved at the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum's Udvar-Hazy center. The color on the bottom is not a reflection.

T-33A 53-5226

 

Cheers,

 

John

 

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Here's another example appearing to show light gray undersides, not past the intakes, but certainly up to them; look at the sides of the intakes and you'll see; also the gear doors, though they are obscured with shadows. I'm guessing the practice was to lessen the undersides' corrosive exposure? I'm thinking the Vermont bird at the top of this has its gear doors in gray which is partly what has changed my opinion in favor of the gray.

 

But this photo raises a new question for me: what if the Vermont bird above has ADC gray for the wing tank outer surfaces as well, like this one, and NOT DayGlo Orange as we've all speculated? 

 

[Dutch]

Andrew,  

STOOOPPP already!  You're beginning to drive me nuts!  Lacking a good quality color photo of the actual aircraft around the actual time frame, you have to make an educated guess.  What do you know?  You do have two very excellent b&w photos of the actual bird at the time of the incident!  (if this is the bird you want to build.)  As Dave pointed out, the winter overcast photo renders the colors "flat."  So what other info do you have?  Here is a photo of the sister unit F-86L with a T-33 in the background, clearly showing  the Day-Glo orange outer tip tanks.  I can't say about the underside of the fuselage, but I would venture to say they were not worried about corrosion control in the late 1950s, so most likely the bottom is natural metal.

 

R/ Dutch

Edited October 15, 2016 by Dutch

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

1 minute ago, Dutch said:

Andrew,  

STOOOPPP already!  You're beginning to drive me nuts!  

 

...Dayglo or International Orange, then? *runs away quickly* 

 

 

[Dutch]

I initially said Intl orange, but changed it to Day-Glo for post continuity sake.  Could be either, I guess.

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

Oh, I didn't mean that...I was teasing with one more question. Apologies!!

 

Now someone else is telling me that those undersides very well might be Aluminum Lacquer protectant. It's the early 60's in New England, so, maybe....

 

Why don't I stick to Tomcats  

Edited October 15, 2016 by Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy

[GEH737]

A little color correction