F4U-1 Birdcage window question

[john53]

I am starting an F4U-1 Birdcage Corsair and was wondering if the Corsairs

flown by VMF-214 early on had the fuselage belly window painted over? I am looking at

using Tamiyas 1/72 Birdcage Corsair as Major Boyington's early mount

on his first tour. Thanks---John

Edited October 10, 2016 by john53

[Sowar]

I think that the clear window was never painted.
If on early F4u1, FG-1 , F3A-1 there was a clear window in " 3/16 plexiglas".
It will be replaced by a door, plain sheet metal(.025) on late.
I don't know from which A/C was the change.

[john53]

Thanks, I believe the 1/72 Tamiya kit gives you both the clear window or the sheet metal to

use at your discretion. Another question is what was the camouflage used on early Corsairs?

I saw one done up nicely, Boyington's F4U-1 Birdcage with side # 83 in what looks like a  two

tone scheme with a red surround around the fuselage star.The demarcation line ran down the center

of the fuselage from cowl to tail. I was under the impression that they were 3 tone and ran to the cockpit

area then dipped to the wings. Thanks---John

Edited October 11, 2016 by john53

[Slartibartfast]

According to Dana Bell in Aircraft Pictorial #7, F4U-1 Corsair Volume 1, Vought used several different "graded camouflage" schemes. There was room for interpretation in the BuAer specifications and Vought produced at least four versions. The kit you saw is very possible. As always, you just have to verify with with period photos.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Slartibartfast

[john53]

Thanks, that's the problem ,finding period photos. They are hard to find and try

finding a specific plane number with side, top and bottom pictures clear enough

to decipher or better yet in color. Are there any artists drawings of these four

Vought versions you speak of? Thanks for the help.---John

[Joe Hegedus]

The belly window was still being installed in the F4U-1A production, so a birdcage Corsair would have the window present.  I don't know precisely when the window was discontinued, but it was after all the birdcage birds were built.  I have a couple photos in my collection from the National Archives that clearly show the window on tri-color F4U-1A birds with a centerline belly tank (positive ID that it is not a birdcage airplane).  Whether or not the squadron painted over it is a separate question.  If it were me, I'd leave it clear and not worry about keeping it that way when I appied any exhaust staining/dirt/grime/etc. to the belly.

[Slartibartfast]

7 hours ago, john53 said:

Are there any artists drawings of these four

Vought versions you speak of? Thanks for the help.

Yes, in Dana's book. Sadly, I don't have a scanner.

[john53]

Probably should break down and buy the book? There are VERY FEW WWII props that

interest me outside of the Zero and Corsair and an occasional Wildcat. The rest seem

so boring and mundane, at least to me.---John

[Slartibartfast]

There is volume 1 for Birdcage F4U-1 and volume 2 for later F4U-1A.

[john53]

Here's the Birdcage I am interested in, side # 83 in September 1943. Looking at it

from my eyes it looks tri-color scheme. I have seen it done in two tone scheme.

Also I can't make out the fuselage star, would it have had the red surround at

that time in the war? Thanks---John

vmf-214-espiritu-santo-landing-hot by jvandeu53, on Flickr

 

[Tracy White]

For what it's worth, Dana's a good guy and is worth supporting with a book buy. I've got both volumes and found them very useful.

 

Full disclosure, I may have eaten lunch with him once or twice at NARA.

[Andrew D. the Jolly Rogers guy]

6 hours ago, john53 said:

Here's the Birdcage I am interested in, side # 83 in September 1943. Looking at it

from my eyes it looks tri-color scheme. I have seen it done in two tone scheme.

Also I can't make out the fuselage star, would it have had the red surround at

that time in the war? Thanks---John

vmf-214-espiritu-santo-landing-hot by jvandeu53, on Flickr

 

 

John, for what it's worth, I think you may be right about this being a tri-color bird. Not just the darker uppers, but looking at the wing outer panels, which would have blue-gray unders and dark blue uppers, with the inner wing area and undersides being white, though stained....it really does seem to fit. I think you're right.

 

As far as the insignia, well, that's tougher...Sept 43 is a period where both were seen, depending on how fast anyone was able to "get around to it." I know VF-17's birds from the same time period had a bit of both.

[john53]

Thanks Andrew, that's what I am seeing also. As far as the red surround goes the orders

were already given but it takes time to work it's way from Washington through the Pacific,

especially when there's more important things going on like "a war".---John

PS-this is whay I think it should look like---

Corsair_Weather_1 by jvandeu53, on Flickr

Edited October 15, 2016 by john53

[habu2]

Damn spammers....

 

edit: the spam post I reported was removed, don't want anyone to take my now freestanding comment as a reference to their post in this thread.

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by habu2

[Falcon50EX]

On 10/14/2016 at 10:51 AM, john53 said:

Here's the Birdcage I am interested in, side # 83 in September 1943. Looking at it

from my eyes it looks tri-color scheme. I have seen it done in two tone scheme.

Also I can't make out the fuselage star, would it have had the red surround at

that time in the war? Thanks---John

vmf-214-espiritu-santo-landing-hot by jvandeu53, on Flickr

 

1) If you build your Birdcage with the window on the belly you will stand on firm ground.

 

2) One of the major takeaways of Dana Bell's Corsair books, is the original research he conducted on Corsair paint schemes. Short version is: there was a lot we didn't know.

 

The photo above depicts what i think is an F4U in what is now called the "Graded 4-Tone Scheme". This involved thinning the Non Spec Sea Blue very heavily, and ever so gradually blending it into the adjacent intermediate blue, as to achieve a  seamless transition between colours. In some cases its believed that the Non Spec Blue was extended all the way down to the white, in such a way as to give the illusion of Intermediate blue.

There were 2 problems with this approach: 1) The scheme itself was time consuming and difficult to apply. 2) The Non Spec Sea Blue was a very unstable colour (like Olive Drab) and it tended to chalk and fade rapidly to the point where the intermediate and Non Spec blue melded to a monotone colour.

 

FWIW, i wrote an article about this conundrum over on imodeler: https://imodeler.com/2015/04/a-good-year-for-corsairs/

Provided solely for curing your insomnia.

 

It appears that Goodyear struggled/ held out longer than Vought in trying to adhere to the Navy Bu Aer specs, whereas Vpoght went to a much simplified and easier to apply "cookie cutter" scheme that largely resembled the so called "Norfolk Scheme" used on early Hellcats, Avengers and Dauntlesses. I think Goodyear may have made the changeover to overall Gloss Sea Blue before Vought did.

 

finally, i suspect if it had a red surround that it was overpainted with blue, much like VF-17 aircraft.

 

-d-

 

 

[greatgonzo]

The red rims were overpainted blue and green in the area. It was agreed and officially stated by both Army and Navy. Locally, as discussion with higher command lasted till this, short lived, insignia was replaced by new one with IB rims. It would be bold to say that none of thousands aircraft carried red rims in combat there. Yet the picture of such is to be found. I have seen a few with high probability of keeping original red, but as said no real proof.