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Where oh where is our Hornet replacement?


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1 minute ago, chuck540z3 said:

18 Super Hornets!  Great, now we don't have to worry about fighter jets anymore.  Since we pulled our Legacy Hornets out of the fight against ISIS, 18 new ones should be plenty for years to come.

 

 

I'm curious to see if 18 turns to 24 after a couple years, and then thats all folks: The Canadian fighter force. 

 

Waiting to see more details emerge. So Canada is going to stay in the F-35 program while also buying (or leasing??) Super Hornets, while spending years and millions more to throw a competition? you guys sure know how to party there. 

 

 

 

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Well I have one Hasegawa 1/48 F-18E kit and one F-18F. I would think Canada would also like a couple of 2 seaters in that order so need to pick up another two seater. Hey it would be cool to even see some EF-18s in the mix but I would think not. Although having said that did Australia not buy some of those?

 

Now my other question. What would the numbering be? A 189xxx series? This would distinguish them from the old A versions.

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You had to know this was going to happen. Sunny left himself no option after he teed off against the F-35 so much. For him to select the F-35 after he bad mouthed it so vehemently would be an admission of being wrong and nothing in this guys MO suggests that he's willing or even capable of losing face (doesn't make for good photo ops). So now he gets to stand up in front of the adoring  Cdn media and say "look at me everyone [pauses for a toke of newly legalized pot]...I kept my promise and we didn't buy the F-35 [insert JT flight suited hero shot here]". The media will get all watery eyed and the can to select a permanent replacement for the legacy Bugs will then get kicked down the road until after the next federal election. JT will win a second term thanks to the sheeple and TT's idea of 18 becoming 24ish SH's will come to fruition and there's your RCAF fast mover fighter/ground attack force folks for the next three decades.

Good job Junior...

 

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1 hour ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

 

I'm curious to see if 18 turns to 24 after a couple years, and then thats all folks: The Canadian fighter force. 

 

Waiting to see more details emerge. So Canada is going to stay in the F-35 program while also buying (or leasing??) Super Hornets, while spending years and millions more to throw a competition? you guys sure know how to party there. 

 

 

 

 

 

It's an obvious noncommittal choice, based upon the Liberal campaign promise to not buy the F-35.  Now that they are in power and privy to what the Cdn. Air Force actually needs (and wants), it would look bad if they went ahead and committed to F-35's now and it would look equally stupid to go "all-in" and buy 50-75 F-18E/F's instead.   With 18 Super Hornets, they fill a short term void and get to see how the F-35 performs over the next couple of years.  If the F-35 turns out to be a turkey, they buy another 50 Hornets and claim they were right all along.  If the F-35 turns out better than currently expected for performance and cost, they buy maybe 25 of them and brag that we have a "blended Air Force" with different fighter aircraft with unique abilities for different roles, while saving the Canadian taxpayer billions of dollars over a full F-35 commitment.

 

So, in other words to our American friends, "You go first" and let's see where the F-35 chips fall in the future.  Good luck, because as everyone knows and doesn't want to admit, Canadians don't need to spend much money on their military, because our big brother south of the border will protect us.  Our job is to supply a few aircraft and a ship or two so that we don't appear to be complete parasites.

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On 11/4/2016 at 8:00 AM, bikerider said:
1 hour ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

 If the F-35 turns out better than currently expected for performance and cost, they buy maybe 25 of them and brag that we have a "blended Air Force" with different fighter aircraft with unique abilities for different roles, while saving the Canadian taxpayer billions of dollars over a full F-35 commitment.

 

They aren't going to admit the F-35 is the right aircraft now, why would they in the future? JT said it didn't work about a month before the USAF declared it operational. lol I don't actually expect the level of coherence you describe above. for Canada it's too hot too touch but for all these other F-35 countries they are buying them up, taking delivery, and placing orders? in Canadaland the F-35 is the culprit and for everyone else Canada is just pulling another seaking replacement.

 

 

On 11/4/2016 at 8:00 AM, bikerider said:
1 hour ago, chuck540z3 said:

So, in other words to our American friends, "You go first" and let's see where the F-35 chips fall in the future.  Good luck, because as everyone knows and doesn't want to admit, Canadians don't need to spend much money on their military, because our big brother south of the border will protect us.  Our job is to supply a few aircraft and a ship or two so that we don't appear to be complete parasites.

 

We are going first. we have operational squadrons. only Canada is still playing "wait and see"  

 

Which brings us back to square one, the RCAF as a figurehead. the RCAF shrinking and taking a back seat. 

 

The interim aircraft could be F-35s. funny how that would change the dynamic. it's going to take about 2 to 3 years for super Hornets to become operational. which is I believe how long it took Australia, which is how long it would take F-35 stand up I presume

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What a farce! This is a gimmick to force the Super Hornet through. There won't be an honest and ethical competition.

 

Setting up training for a fleet of 18 aircraft is costly. They'll try to grow the 18 and will have to do it soon or the Super Hornet line will be shut down,

 

Liberal trash!

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On Friday, November 04, 2016 at 11:20 AM, TaiidanTomcat said:

Everyday they delay the F-35 gets stronger and the Super Hornet gets more expensive.

 

There are more F-35s than F-22s and Rafales. the USAF took delivery of its 100th F-35 in August. 

 

Is Canada really prepared to drop out of this program? of course not. they've just painted themselves into a political corner temporarily. which is again why they haven't pulled the trigger on anything in a year

I agree.....all payments have been made to stay in the program..... a program that was joined by our red conservatives predecessor JC. So there is political wiggle room to purchase. Definitely not dead in the water.

 

Scooby...... Our red conservatives have an agenda.....saving face yet buying the fighter everyone is against. 

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I was expecting this, especially after hearing the Kuwaiti Super Hornet deal.  I believe that Canada was watching that, very closely and provided the in that they needed for this "interim" purchase.

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If the CAF are smart, they will buy the F/A-18F+ similar to what Australia did, so that when decision on next fighter is taken they can convert the F/A-18F+'s into EA-18G's and introduce a new capability. This will safeguard against "waisted" money on interim fighters ;) My 2cc

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That would be logical, which is why it won't happen. The Libs would never permit Canada to look to aggressive and keep our new planes for defensive and training jobs only. So what do we get for 18 plane? One one front line squadron (410 or 409) with 6 for the training pipeline (410).

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Same old story.......yesterday's technology today. When Hornet first flew, cell phones looked like a brick with an antenna. Super Hornet, brings us up to flip phones. Just try to sell either of these to people that have Smart phones.

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17 hours ago, skyhawk174 said:

Well I have one Hasegawa 1/48 F-18E kit and one F-18F. I would think Canada would also like a couple of 2 seaters in that order so need to pick up another two seater. Hey it would be cool to even see some EF-18s in the mix but I would think not. Although having said that did Australia not buy some of those?

 

Now my other question. What would the numbering be? A 189xxx series? This would distinguish them from the old A versions.

Glad I'm not the only one thinking of this in modeling terms :)  I'm looking forward to some cool decal options!

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16 hours ago, chuck540z3 said:

 

 

 

"...because as everyone knows and doesn't want to admit, Canadians don't need to spend much money on their military, because our big brother south of the border will protect us.  Our job is to supply a few aircraft and a ship or two so that we don't appear to be complete parasites."

 

^ Nailed it...Chuck knows.

 

Time to dismantle NATO altogether and let sovereign states defend themselves.

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So the next time we need help with one of our overseas adventures, we should plan on going it alone?

1 hour ago, 82Whitey51 said:

 

^ Nailed it...Chuck knows.

 

Time to dismantle NATO altogether and let sovereign states defend themselves.

 

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4 hours ago, MacStingy said:

Same old story.......yesterday's technology today. When Hornet first flew, cell phones looked like a brick with an antenna. Super Hornet, brings us up to flip phones. Just try to sell either of these to people that have Smart phones.

 

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=23808&sid=178c0af932af156561afe40cfd6df2dc

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20 hours ago, skyhawk174 said:

 

 

Now my other question. What would the numbering be? A 189xxx series? This would distinguish them from the old A versions.

My guess is they are going to keep the 188XXX series. 1887XX are single seaters and 1889XX are twin. They might do 1885XX for E's and 1886XX for F's. or they might buy all F's and call them all 1888XX.

 

 Who knows. I am sure nobody in the government has even made that decision yet.

 

 Sean

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9 hours ago, Niels said:

If the CAF are smart, they will buy the F/A-18F+ similar to what Australia did, so that when decision on next fighter is taken they can convert the F/A-18F+'s into EA-18G's and introduce a new capability. This will safeguard against "waisted" money on interim fighters ;) My 2cc

 

Australia paid well over regular price to get the conversion capability. The ANAO actually put Australia's Super Hornets as more expensive than their F-35s. Canada also, early on wrote several studies that basically said to avoid a mixed fleet at all costs, or else there would be a lot more cost. They are now ignoring their own advice, but providing they don't mind spending the money, they can go wild which brings me to:

 

There are going to be a lot of comparisons to Aus so lets get that in the open. Australia bought Super Hornets, Australia bought Growlers, Australia bought super Hornets it could convert to Growlers, it bought wedgetails and P-8s, and already has 72 F-35s on order with F-35 pilots in training and more orders to follow. Australia is willing to spend money. Canada seems petrified of doing so. Australia is willing to operate mixed fleets, Australia is able to make decisions Canada is dithering on a smaller order of F-35s than the Aussies have already committed to. They aren't the same thing. 

 

Quote

 

OTTAWA – The federal Liberal government says it will “explore the acquisition” of 18 new Boeing-made Super Hornet jets on an interim basis until it can decide on a permanent replacement for Canada’s aging fleet of fighter planes.

The government plans to meet with the U.S. and Boeing to purchase the 18 planes “at a cost, time, level of capability and economic value that is acceptable to Canada” in order to fill a “capability gap” in the country’s air defences.

The decision marks what will surely be another controversial turning point in the long, protracted effort to replace the air force’s workhorse CF-18s, which Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan says are long past due for replacement.

 

Sajjan said the military will implement a range of new measures including recruitment and training in order to extend the range of service of the existing CF-18 fleet.

“All of these actions, taken together, are necessary to address the situation this government has inherited.”

This past spring, the government had been eyeing the Super Hornets as a stop-gap option until an outcry from industry and the opposition forced them back to the drawing board.

During last year’s election campaign, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau promised not to purchase Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter, long the preferred option of the previous Conservative government.

The government has been struggling with how to fulfil that promise for fear any attempt to exclude the stealth fighter from a competition would result in a multibillion-dollar lawsuit.

READ MORE: F-35 still in the running to replace CF-18s?

Canada will remain a member of the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program, which gave rise to the F-35, Sajjan added.

“With this investment in the Royal Canadian Air Force over the short and long term, Canadian air space will be better defended,” said Gen. Jonathan Vance, Canada’s chief of the defence staff.

“We will be a stronger partner in our own defence through Norad and we will have the capacity to meet our NATO obligations and continue to contribute meaningfully to global security.”


 

There is precedent for buying Super Hornets on an interim basis after Australia bought 24 of the aircraft to replace antiquated F-111 jets until newer F-35s were ready.

However, the idea of Canada needing to follow suit was largely dismissed by a government-appointed expert panel and the military’s research branch as too expensive, since the air force would be operating two types of aircraft, demanding different training, infrastructure and supporting equipment.

One key question will be how much the Super Hornets would cost.

The Liberals pegged the cost of one F-35 at $175 million and one Super Hornet at $65 million, but those numbers have been repeatedly questioned.

Meanwhile, Kuwait recently announced plans to buy 40 Super Hornets for $13 billion. While the deal includes eight Super Hornets dedicated to electronic warfare, that still works out to $335 million per plane.

At the same time, Denmark is moving ahead with plans to buy 27 F-35s at a cost of $4 billion, which amounts to about $148 million per plane.

 

Even then, both Boeing and Lockheed Martin have said comparisons with other countries do not reveal the true costs for Canada, which would require a different package than other countries.

There is also the issue of how much Canadian business would benefit from the decision.

The Liberal government paid $33 million in June to stay within the F-35 program, bringing Canada’s total contribution to $311 million since 1997.

 

The government’s argument for making the payment was to keep Canadian companies in the running for billions of dollars in work, of which they have so far received more than $1 billion.

Industry Canada estimated in December 2014 that Canadian companies could win more than $9.5 billion in work associated with the F-35.

Supporters of the F-35 have said such contracts would represent leading-edge work for Canada’s aerospace sector and see them feeding into a global supply chain in support of the stealth fighter.

But the work is also not guaranteed, and Canadian companies would need to compete for each contract.

In contrast, Boeing would likely be bound by the government’s long-standing rule that requires foreign companies to re-invest into Canada after winning federal contracts.

The policy has been previously criticized, while critics say any work associated with the Super Hornet would be on old technology.

But Boeing indicated in the summer that it could target those required investments by expanding its sizable commercial operations in Canada.

 

 

http://globalnews.ca/news/3081465/liberals-poised-to-make-decision-on-fighter-jets-sources/

 

The bolded price comparison is inaccurate, and seems to be comparing 2 separate prices types. Always fun to see the spin. The latest Super Hornet flyaway costs were 77 million for the USN. not even the US is getting them for 65 million. 

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4 hours ago, 11bee said:

So the next time we need help with one of our overseas adventures, we should plan on going it alone?

 

Yeah, we pretty much do anyway. At the very least, it'd be nice to see someone else take the lead and the U.S. contribute a ship or squadron or two.

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20 minutes ago, 82Whitey51 said:

Yeah, we pretty much do anyway. At the very least, it'd be nice to see someone else take the lead and the U.S. contribute a ship or squadron or two.

 

Having said all of the above, I think that Britain and France have been very supportive of other NATO conflicts and Canada used to be.  Eg. Libya and Kosovo.  Weren't the first airstrikes in Libya from the French Eurofighters?

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10 hours ago, Niels said:

If the CAF are smart, they will buy the F/A-18F+ similar to what Australia did, so that when decision on next fighter is taken they can convert the F/A-18F+'s into EA-18G's and introduce a new capability. This will safeguard against "waisted" money on interim fighters ;) My 2cc

There won't be a provision to convert any F model Super Hornets to EA-18Gs, simply because Canada has never incorporated SEAD into our mission.  Our pilots have never trained with SEAD in mind, so it simply will not happen.

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 “at a cost, time, level of capability and economic value that is acceptable to Canada"... and free oil changes, tire rotations, and lifetime bumper-to-bumper warranty. You'd swear JT and the "sunny ways" crew were shopping for a used car for petes sakes.

 

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