Another obscure MiG-21 question

[jonbryon]

Hi,

 

I am building Eduard's MiG-21bis with the Cold War Studio nose. There are two covers for upper nose area and Eduard provide two options for the smaller of these: J5 and J8. I can't find anyway to figure out which of these I should use. I'm building a NMF Soviet bis, blue 40, from (I think) the 1980s. Anyone know which part I should go with? 

 

Many thanks

 

Jon

[mingwin]

i can't tell for sure in your case, as i've based my choices based on photos. but 2 times out of 3, on the subject i've chosen, the de-icer tank cover was of the "longer" type. (can't remember which part number it was)

but there should be people more knowledgeable than me, who could tell *why* (or if it was just a factory thing, like the windshield sides shape (rounded or squared))

maybe a PM to Ya-Gabor if you're in a rush...

Edited November 5, 2016 by mingwin

[jonbryon]

Thanks Mingwin; I'll have a closer look. I do have a reference photo, but the angle is not good. I didn't know about differences in the windscreen shape, so thanks for the heads up on that!

 

Cheers

 

Jon

[ya-gabor]

There are a lot of missing details in the Eduard MiG-21 bis instruction sheet like the difference between parts J5 and J8. I have to say that I am sorry for this, since it was me who pushed Eduard to try and do an almost perfect MiG-21 bis kit. From all the recommendations I would say that about 60% was used and the different covers were one of them. It is sad that they felt that they know everything and did not ask for any help in preparing the instruction sheet. So while you get the extra parts there is little or no information on why this or that version should be used. Sorry, blame me, I was not forceful enough!

 

 

The J5 version cover was used on late production model bis fighters. Many a/c with manufacturers number starting with 75 08 have this version as well as the ones with 75 09 identification. To go with this version you would expect to have the G2 windscreen which has a square shaped front part a bigger housing for the angle of attack vane (missing from the kit). Also you would expect to see a late version KM-1M ejection seat in these airframes (well this part is also missing from the Edu kit). There are many other changes but that is a long story . . .

 

 

The instruction sheet did not mention anything about using the G2 windscreen for the Finnish AF version or what is the reason for different covers J5 and J8.

 

 

As far as I can understand you are trying to build a Soviet AF natural metal early MiG-21 bis. The early version had the J8 cover for the de-icing alcohol container and the G1 windscreen.

The early natural metal bis fighters had a light grey panel on the underside of the nose before they were painted light grey “Teflon” colour overall. Still later it was time for the camo scheme. . .

 

 

The attached photo shows the light grey panel clearly. Sorry it was a comment I made for a Russian forum so you have some Russian explanation on it, but I think it is clear.

 

 

Is this of any help?

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

Edited November 5, 2016 by ya-gabor

[jonbryon]

This is brilliant information; thank you Gabor. I do have a photo of Blue 40 from a visit to Finland that should show me the colour of that panel; I'll check.

 

BTW, you helped me before with some questions on Trumpeter's 1/48 MiG-21F-13. I know you don't like that kit, but my results are here: https://jonbryon.com/trumpeter-148-mikoyan-gurevich-mig-21f-13-fishbed-c/

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

 

Jon

[ChippyWho]

Sorry to jump in on this wagon -and huge thanks, Gabor!- but would the same apply to a bis SAU ('MiG-21bis Fishbed-N', as I have seen it described)?. The type I'm interested in would have been deployed to Afghanistan in the early/mid 1980s.

 

(The words 'Can' and 'Worms' come to mind! ) 

 

Many thanks for any information.

Edited November 5, 2016 by ChippyWho

[ya-gabor]

The Russian bis visit to Finland was on 5^th to 9^th August 1974 at the Rissala base. The aircraft came from the Kubinka base and they were early examples, as far as I know some of the first in service. But maybe Kotey can right me on this. There are a lot of photos of blue 40 with the special writing on both sides of its nose in all sorts of publications! There are good colour pictures of it too!!! The Finnish enthusiasts at the time identified the grey under the cockpit as FS 27722. Of the five visiting aircraft only No.35 (c/n75011394) was in overall grey scheme the rest in natural metal.

Number 40 blue was a bis with factory number 75012400 although at the time the Finnish only knew it/were told as a MiG-21MF. It has to be said that many airframe details on these early bis fighters were similar to the MF version.

 

The MiG-21 SAU name is something which was given to them in GDR, it was never an official Russian designation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Unfortunately in the West the version of the bis with the antennas under the nose and on top of the fin with RSBN (navigational) system was erroneously identified as SAU! ONLY IN GDR!!! There were two versions of the bis: one optimised for interception with the Lazur guidance system (Type 75A)  and the other version with the RSBN  (Type75AP) more a fighter bomber. One could see both versions standing side by side on an apron of the time.

 

The MiG-21bis in Afganistan were many years later (from the Finland flight) and by that time they had camouflage, certainly no metal or grey versions there. I don’t have construction numbers for the airframes which flew in Afganistan, will have to have a look at contemporary photos.

 

One interesting thing about the Afgan aircraft is that a makeshift flare dispenser was added to these aircraft for self protection.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[jonbryon]

Thanks Gabor. I am using decals from Begemot for Blue 40, although they date it to 1983 in the USSR, so maybe I am modelling it in a later timeframe. I have one big photo in an old Take Off magazine, but if you know of any others on the internet, do let me know. I have done some searching but I imagine I am missing out on a lot of Russian and Finnish language sources.

 

Many thanks

 

Jon

[jonbryon]

BTW, it's because of information like this that I *love* the ARC forums :)

[Berkut]

44 minutes ago, ya-gabor said:

The Russian bis visit to Finland was on 5^th to 9^th August 1974 at the Rissala base. The aircraft came from the Kubinka base and they were early examples...

Gabor

Gabor, trying to notify you for third time now... I sent you a PM a while back. (sorry for hijacking to everyone else)

[mingwin]

7 minutes ago, jonbryon said:

BTW, it's because of information like this that I *love* the ARC forums :)

totally agree, it's ARC forums at its best.

thank you Gabor for sharing the wealth of your knowledge. your inputs are very useful and highly appreciated. good to see you around.

[ya-gabor]

1 hour ago, jonbryon said:

 I am using decals from Begemot for Blue 40, although they date it to 1983 in the USSR,

 

Which decal is that? I dont really think that almost 10 years after the visit to Rissala Blue 40 was still around in its original form. But you never know!

 

 

Some references: From Japan, the Famous Airplanes of the World  No.55 on MiG-21 dating back November 1974 had a lot of photos from this visit. 

The French Replic by Jean-Michel Guhl No. 1 from March 1991 excellent quality photos

The Finnish IPMS publication, the IPMS-Mallari had many articles about this.

Also many book on the MiG-21 had photos of this aircraft both during its visit (most of them by Klaus Niska) but also back in Russia at its Kubinka base (TASS photos).

 

Best regards

Gabor

[jonbryon]

Thanks Gabor. The decal set is 48-002 which describes Blue 40 as  3rd Squadron of the 234 GFR, Kubinka AFB, Moscow Military District 1983. It says this unit 'in 1983 rearmed to the bis modification and save up the tradition of at least one (board number 40) aircraft having the inscription "Komsomol Guaranty" ... on the starboard side and "XVII congress of Komsomol" ... on the port side." This is the decals sheet (elements 30 and 40 are for Blue 40):

 

 

I am now a little bit confused :) Did Begemot get the date wrong?

 

A couple of photos and explanation here: http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/5965-reestr-mig-21-na-http-russianplanes-net-6/

 

I found these photos here http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=4602&start=25: (These are definitely a bis, right?)

 

 

[Floggerman]

2 hours ago, jonbryon said:

 (These are definitely a bis, right?)

 

yes, bis Lazur (as called in GDR, Gabor explained correctly)

[ya-gabor]

Yes, basically you have all the references which are available and they are excellent! Only you have them in the electronic form while I have them in original printed edition. It is not often that you would have all around photos of one particular aircraft from that time in such good quality!  :)  :)

 

Please dont confuse the visit to Finland with the one to France in 1971 which was made with MiG-21MF's. Also fantastic looking natural metal examples!

 

The Russian sight describes the event well from the official books of the Kubinka based 234rd Guard Fighter Wing history. These publications quote the visiting aircraft as belonging to the first squadron and not to 3^rd (Begemot).

 

They also give the names of the pilots for three of the aircraft so blue 40 was flown by flight lieutenant A. B. Bokacha. Of the five pilot only Mayor E.N. Avedikov in the lead grey painted Blue 35 was senior pilot all the rest freshly arrived (4-5 years) young pilots.

The visit was most definitely in 1974. The Kubinka based unit was/is a “show case” unit also doing some tests with brand new aircraft types. So it is logical that in 1974 they had the new bis fighters and the Soviet Union was keen to sell it to the Finnish AF to replace the “slightly” aging MiG-21F-13’s in Finland. In the next 10 years by 1983 Kubinka would have had about two new generations of fighters to “look over” like the MiG-23’s. It is know that in July 1983 the very first four MiG-29’s have arrived to Kubinka from the factory at Luhovice. So the MiG-21 bis would have been a “bit” out dated by this time!

 

The markings on the aircraft were as they are on the decal sheet so I don’t think it makes much difference in terms of your kit if you say that it is from 1974 or from 1983!

 

Yes, as Floggerman has said the five aircraft were MiG-21 bis (Type 75A) with the Lazur system. So don’t use the RSBN antennas provided in the kit.

 

Note that just after the intake ring there were dull greyish/metal areas on the intakes of Blue 40.

 

Best regards

Gabor

[jonbryon]

Thanks Gabor. I have noted that dull greyish/metal area on the right intake area on another photo I have, but I think it looks very ugly. I might not reproduce it ;)

 

Many thanks

 

Jon