Jump to content

Canada's getting a new FWSAR aircraft (finally). Too bad it's the wrong one,


Recommended Posts

There's been a need for a FWSAR replacement since 2002.

 

The Canadian Air Force knew which plane it needed since 2005.

 

It took the government over 14 years to make a decision, and then they chose the wrong one. :bandhead2:

 

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/liberals-to-announce-3-billion-search-and-rescue-aircraft-contract-airbus-named-as-winner

Edited by Raceaddict
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would love to hear why you think it's the wrong one. 

 

Don't just say you think it's wrong, [provide substantiation on why...

 

I was at AETE when the development of the testing criteria was made...it would be interesting to see if you substantiation has any merit.

 

Looking forward to hearing your response.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The pilots that fly SAR knew what they wanted back in 05/06. I trust that they know what's best so I'll take their opinions over a government committee any day.

 

The C-27J flies faster and further. That equals less time to get to the search area, and more time over the area... actually searching. The C295 will either have to stop to refuel (when called out to the territories) or will be able to spend less time over the target area.

 

The C-27J has a substantially larger diameter fuselage, which means it's more versatile in what it can carry. (also probably more usable space for the SAR techs and their gear)

 

Lastly, commonality with the C-130J (engines in particular) makes a lot of sense.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No matter what nothing will truly replace the classic CC-115 Buffalo, DeHaviland Canada  created a winner back in  the day.

 

As to the new aircraft, I have not followed the  process close enough. But I wonder why the Bombardier Q400 did not make the grade? Looking at stats it looks to be  as good if not better than the other  choices.

Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, Gordon Shumway said:

As to the new aircraft, I have not followed the  process close enough. But I wonder why the Bombardier Q400 did not make the grade? Looking at stats it looks to be  as good if not better than the other  choices.

 

No cargo ramp would have been a deal breaker I think.

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dylan said:

lets see...P+W engines made in Montreal, training simulators made by CAE based in ........Montreal. PM sunshines home turf.

let's see... some 20 000 of the 36 000 jobs in Canada's aeronautic domain are located in the Montréal area.  and this have nothing to do with Trudeau's being elected there...

Please Guys, if you can't help yourself whining about the fact that, it's now the turn of the Liberals to pissed-off their opponents by doing whatever they wanted, after a decade of Reformist's stupidity (and their anti-science bias...)

could you please, at least, not fall into some regional bashing... it's already painful enough to see how many of our fellow members being unable to respect other political orientation than theirs... i think it was the purpose of the "NO POLITIC" policy of the forum... seems like it's long gone now...and it's quite sad.

I already work day long in a very political environment as i work at the Minister's Regional Office (Canada Works), i meet some of the Government's Minister's every week or so, sometimes on a daily basis. 

it's been one full year now that i've work with the Liberal's staff... and i bless the day of their election! ...after having to work with the Reformist for 6 years... (happily most of their staff was from the old Progressive Conservative Party, so they where sharing the "pain"...of seeing how things have turned when having the parliament's majority...)

 

 

Edited by mingwin
Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, mingwin said:

i think it was the purpose of the "NO POLITIC" policy of the forum... seems like it's long gone now...and it's quite sad.

 

This!  Would be nice if we could have a little more respect on here for other people that don't agree with your views. We are all adults should start acting like we are. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Raceaddict said:

The pilots that fly SAR knew what they wanted back in 05/06. I trust that they know what's best so I'll take their opinions over a government committee any day.

 

The C-27J flies faster and further. That equals less time to get to the search area, and more time over the area... actually searching. The C295 will either have to stop to refuel (when called out to the territories) or will be able to spend less time over the target area.

 

The C-27J has a substantially larger diameter fuselage, which means it's more versatile in what it can carry. (also probably more usable space for the SAR techs and their gear)

 

Lastly, commonality with the C-130J (engines in particular) makes a lot of sense.

 

Buffaloes aren't sent to the Territories unless it is an extended search. A Herc would be the first deployed.

 

I'm not surprised by this announcement. I think both aircraft had their merits.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What the Hell!? There are better choices out there like the Tweet, the Aerocar and the Tomcat.........

 

Man, you Canadians can't make any smart procurement decisions, can't you?

 

:taunt:

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Scooby said:

 

Buffaloes aren't sent to the Territories unless it is an extended search. A Herc would be the first deployed.

 

I'm not surprised by this announcement. I think both aircraft had their merits.

 

Yes, but the C295 is replacing both the Buffs (west coast) and the H Hercs (east coast). The idea going forward is for a single FWSAR fleet across the country, hence why I'm left wondering why the plane with the least range won the competition.

Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, mingwin said:

(and their anti-science bias...)

 

 

You shouldn't go dropping political bombs, then complain about political explosions...Its looking like the "anti science" is running strong everywhere up there. google Jordan Peterson, University of Toronto. 

 

Protip:

 

Do: Complain about politics and the need to be neutral, stay neutral. emphasize the no politics rule

 

Do not: Take parting shot or controversial political biased view, then complain about politics. emphasize politics while lamenting the "no politics" rule has "slipped"

 

You don't hit a guy in the face and then when he winds up to you back, remind him hitting is wrong and why he's prepping to hit you. I think I learned that at 5 years. Turnabout is fair play. I'm crass, short, and a little rude. So I am not surprised when treated in kind. But you don't get to have it both ways. 

 

 

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, TaiidanTomcat said:

 

You shouldn't go dropping political bombs, then complain about political explosions...

 

 

 

you got it wrong man... my comment hasn't start the fire...(that goes the opposite way! ...if you read it from top to bottom and from left to right...)

there was many many political comments on Canadian military procurement here recently...  and it's quite sad.

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, mingwin said:

there was many many political comments on Canadian military procurement here recently...  and it's quite sad.

 

Unfortunately, as was already mentioned in the Hornet replacement thread... it is absolutely impossible to separate "politics" from "Canadian military procurement".

 

I'm going to link to an article here and in the Hornet thread... and I'll quote a few points for posterity.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixed-wing-search-planes-1.3885653

 



"It boggles the mind," said Alan Williams, who was the head of military procurement when the federal finance department approached National Defence, saying it had $1 billion to spend on equipment for the Forces.

Fixed-wing search-and-rescue planes were an obvious choice, he said.

"The minister gets up in the House and basically says, 'We need new airplanes to find people who are lost and save them.' It was a no-brainer from that perspective," said Williams

But just before the Conservatives were elected in 2006, the program stalled over accusations from defence contractors that the air force had rigged the specifications in favour of Leonardo's C-27J.

The air force has long denied the allegation, but in 2012 the top brass pitched the former Conservative government on buying surplus U.S. C-27Js.

Williams says there's an important lesson in the long-drawn-out fiasco.

"The military has to know and has to be told" on this project and other that their job is to define requirements for equipment needs and it's the government's job to hold an open, fair tender and pick the winner, he said. "And that's it."

Commenting on the issue of new fighter planes, he said, "I have no doubt the air force wants the F-35. I can understand that. I have no doubt the air force wanted the C-27J. I can understand that, too.

"But that's why it's incumbent on the assistant deputy minister of material, the deputy minister and the minister to safeguard the process and protect the military — actually — from themselves."

Former defence minister Peter MacKay said in December 2008 that the search planes were his top procurement priority, but the effort bogged down and it was eventually referred to the National Research Council for analysis.

The council agreed the military's specifications were far too specific and needed to be broadened in order to ensure competition.

 

So, the people doing the job that needs specific equipment tell the government what they need, and the government people (who have never done the job in their life) say "oh no, you don't really know what you need... let us broaden the requirements to make sure you really get what you need".

 

And that, gentlemen, is why politics always comes up in relation to Canadian military procurement. :rolleyes:

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, mingwin said:

let's see... some 20 000 of the 36 000 jobs in Canada's aeronautic domain are located in the Montréal area.  and this have nothing to do with Trudeau's being elected there...

Please Guys, if you can't help yourself whining about the fact that, it's now the turn of the Liberals to pissed-off their opponents by doing whatever they wanted, after a decade of Reformist's stupidity (and their anti-science bias...)

could you please, at least, not fall into some regional bashing... it's already painful enough to see how many of our fellow members being unable to respect other political orientation than theirs... i think it was the purpose of the "NO POLITIC" policy of the forum... seems like it's long gone now...and it's quite sad.

I already work day long in a very political environment as i work at the Minister's Regional Office (Canada Works), i meet some of the Government's Minister's every week or so, sometimes on a daily basis. 

it's been one full year now that i've work with the Liberal's staff... and i bless the day of their election! ...after having to work with the Reformist for 6 years... (happily most of their staff was from the old Progressive Conservative Party, so they where sharing the "pain"...of seeing how things have turned when having the parliament's majority...)

 

 

1fl1ml.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

thank you Raceaddict for your clear answer. 

so, should chatting about Canada's military procurement always being in contradiction with the "no politics" policy of the forum? 

 

i can easily get most here don't like JT... and they're  totally entitled to (but here's not the better place to vent about that...) ...then again, till that, i've got not much problem with that. 

 

but when some claim that some contract was given on the basis that it will bring money into Quebec province, because he was elected there.... and that, in another thread about RCAF SH procurement it was stated by some: " (...)and then pick something that offers the most industrial offsets for la belle province." ...i think that it crossed the line.

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Raceaddict said:

 

Unfortunately, as was already mentioned in the Hornet replacement thread... it is absolutely impossible to separate "politics" from "Canadian military procurement".

 

I'm going to link to an article here and in the Hornet thread... and I'll quote a few points for posterity.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixed-wing-search-planes-1.3885653

 

 

 

 

So, the people doing the job that needs specific equipment tell the government what they need, and the government people (who have never done the job in their life) say "oh no, you don't really know what you need... let us broaden the requirements to make sure you really get what you need".

 

And that, gentlemen, is why politics always comes up in relation to Canadian military procurement. :rolleyes:

 

 

 

there it is. Maybe we need to change it from "no politics" to "No Canadian procurement discussions" ??

 

like I said in the other thread. If the boss is just going to inject himself and pick what he wants anyway why have massive amount of bureaucracy dedicated to running comparisons and competitions. just make it official, its saves money and is at least honest in the sense that the bureaucracy and military inputs aren't being utterly ignored, to pick what is politically tasteful. Are there politics involved in procurement? of course there are and there should be, especially in democracies. But with Canada it is an unhealthy extreme to the point as Race addict demonstrates the ruling politicos think they know better and utterly overrule others in some very complicated subjects and if it gets bad enough, you see debacles like the sea king replacement, and F-35, I know theres more those just the really obvious ones. The taxpayers suffer first, but the military suffers for decades.

Edited by TaiidanTomcat
Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...