Z-M F-4J Question

[Ranger626]

I've started my Z-M F-4J.    What a beautiful kit!    

 

But I think there may be an error in the instructions for the cockpit rear panel.  Instructions would have you mount Part #H-17 for the rear instrument panel and Part #H-10 and H-12 for the radar controller.   This puts the controller box on the right,  just above the RIO's right knee.    I "think" for F-4J the controller was moved to the center of the panel just below the radar screen.   Parts #I-10 and #I-9 would do just that.   It looks like perhaps Z-M transposed F-4B parts for F-4J parts in their instructions.   My reference for this thinking is the Daco Uncovering US Navy Phantoms book pgs. 95, 110, and 111.    What makes me hesitate is that the possibility that the move to center was for the F-4S or late F-4J models and that some of the early J's had the radar controller in the right side position like the F-4B.    Can anyone confirm or correct my thinking that the parts for the center position should be used for Vietnam era F-4J?

 

I'm thrilled with the quality engineering of this kit; and look forward to building several more.   Especially the long-nose E, F, G, and EJ that have been announced.   Mebbe even RF's and British Spey powered Phantoms.

 

Last comment to mention two small disappointments:

1.  No outboard weapons pylons.   Carrier based phantoms rarely carried wing tanks, but very often had outboard weapons pylons mounted.

2.  No seat belts.    The very nice seats are let down by lack of etched or fabric belts.

No doubt the aftermarket guys will correct both of these shortfalls.

[phantomdriver]

good point about the belts and pylons

As for the pylons I'll raid my spares box, and the belts are easily sorted ..

As I'll be doing mine as a 74 Sqn RAF bird, I'll use the tanks anyway..

[JeffreyK]

4 minutes ago, Ranger626 said:

 

1.  No outboard weapons pylons.   Carrier based phantoms rarely carried wing tanks, but very often had outboard weapons pylons mounted.

 

 

Patience, Grasshopper.

[phantomdriver]

Jeff, I thought you'd pipe up sooner or later....

[Nathant]

3 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

 

Patience, Grasshopper.

Hi Jeff, how about a whole set of Phantom pylons, inboard and outboard, Navy and Air Force, to put on Hasegawa kits? The old True Details ones are hard to find and iffy quality anyway. I could even go into the need for a good available centerline pylon, and SUU-23 gun pod....

[Ben Brown]

It might also be nice to have some new lower aft fuselage parts (to replace parts A4 and A9) and short afterburner nozzles to go with those early J instrument panels. 

 

Ben

[phantomdriver]

17 minutes ago, Nathant said:

Hi Jeff, how about a whole set of Phantom pylons, inboard and outboard, Navy and Air Force, to put on Hasegawa kits? The old True Details ones are hard to find and iffy quality anyway. I could even go into the need for a good available centerline pylon, and SUU-23 gun pod....

He already produces inboards, which will suit Academy/ Hasegawa, not sure if they will suit the ZM..

[Nathant]

38 minutes ago, phantomdriver said:

He already produces inboards, which will suit Academy/ Hasegawa, not sure if they will suit the ZM..

In 1/48 scale? You sure??...off to check...

[phantomdriver]

yep, I got them in a box upstairs....

[Gene K]

1 hour ago, phantomdriver said:

yep, I got them [Hypersonic inboard pylons] in a box upstairs....

 

Gee ... how did I miss those? 

 

Gene K

[madmanrick]

6 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

 

Patience, Grasshopper.

Jeffrey, let's make a deal? I will sign over my pay check to you each week and you just keep sending me resin goodies? Oh, yes you are correct sir, I probably should clear that with swmbo, but I can get away with this for at least a couple of months before she is wise to the deal. After that, maybe you have room on your couch?

Edited December 16, 2016 by madmanrick

[Gene K]

31 minutes ago, madmanrick said:

Jeffrey, let's make a deal?

 

Funny!

 

Since Jeffrey already has excellent 1/72 USN outboard pylons, shouldn't take too much to up  them to 1/48 (?).

 

Could mount the beautiful Eduard MERs or TERs.

 

Gene K

Edited December 16, 2016 by Gene K

[JeffreyK]

I never produced inboard pylons, neither 1:48 nor 1:72. Those are Airea/Quickboost/Aerobonus (can't remember which) and very nice.

I will try to get onto the outboard pylons as soon as I can, reworking the existing 1:72 CAD.  There are two or three more areas I'd lile to address, depending on what the competition is doing. But with several ongoing projects it will take time, unless of course Rick sends me his pay cheques so I can quit my day job....

J

[phantomdriver]

True, I just looked in the box... outboards + tanks....

with a note to myself  inside  " inboards to follow later?"

 

Looking back (2 years ago) at Telford, when I got the tanks from you , I asked you about the inboards

I think you said something of the order.. " not at the moment, as I haven't looked at them yet, but possibly later, as I have a lot  already  to do..."

[madmanrick]

4 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

I never produced inboard pylons, neither 1:48 nor 1:72. Those are Airea/Quickboost/Aerobonus (can't remember which) and very nice.

I will try to get onto the outboard pylons as soon as I can, reworking the existing 1:72 CAD.  There are two or three more areas I'd lile to address, depending on what the competition is doing. But with several ongoing projects it will take time, unless of course Rick sends me his pay cheques so I can quit my day job....

J

Sorry my friend, I am in Government service, so my paycheck wouldn't allow anyone to "quit their day job." Don't get me wrong though, it sure beats being homeless! 

[Nathant]

6 hours ago, JeffreyK said:

I never produced inboard pylons, neither 1:48 nor 1:72. Those are Airea/Quickboost/Aerobonus (can't remember which) and very nice.

I will try to get onto the outboard pylons as soon as I can, reworking the existing 1:72 CAD.  There are two or three more areas I'd lile to address, depending on what the competition is doing. But with several ongoing projects it will take time, unless of course Rick sends me his pay cheques so I can quit my day job....

J

 

Its AeroBonus that makes Navy inboards, no Air Force ones are available, other than the old, sub par True Details ones...

[jpk]

19 hours ago, Ranger626 said:

I've started my Z-M F-4J.    What a beautiful kit!    

 

But I think there may be an error in the instructions for the cockpit rear panel.  Instructions would have you mount Part #H-17 for the rear instrument panel and Part #H-10 and H-12 for the radar controller.   This puts the controller box on the right,  just above the RIO's right knee.    I "think" for F-4J the controller was moved to the center of the panel just below the radar screen.   Parts #I-10 and #I-9 would do just that.   It looks like perhaps Z-M transposed F-4B parts for F-4J parts in their instructions.   My reference for this thinking is the Daco Uncovering US Navy Phantoms book pgs. 95, 110, and 111.    What makes me hesitate is that the possibility that the move to center was for the F-4S or late F-4J models and that some of the early J's had the radar controller in the right side position like the F-4B.    Can anyone confirm or correct my thinking that the parts for the center position should be used for Vietnam era F-4J?

 

I'm thrilled with the quality engineering of this kit; and look forward to building several more.   Especially the long-nose E, F, G, and EJ that have been announced.   Mebbe even RF's and British Spey powered Phantoms.

 

Last comment to mention two small disappointments:

1.  No outboard weapons pylons.   Carrier based phantoms rarely carried wing tanks, but very often had outboard weapons pylons mounted.

2.  No seat belts.    The very nice seats are let down by lack of etched or fabric belts.

No doubt the aftermarket guys will correct both of these shortfalls.

In my old Detail and Scale book on the Navy Phantoms the B/N had the controller on a retractable console on the lower right of the main panel in the rear cockpit. The J/S had the controller moved to the center below the radar screen. There may have been a cross over period between the N's and J's but I would think not since the J's were new builds. Going from the N to the J was a major upgrade to the entire airframe. It would be strange for new builds to be sent to the fleet with old radar gear only to be shortly pulled back from the fleet for such an extensive equipment update. It wouldn't have just involved the rear cockpit. It would have involved a complete radar suite replacement as well as training on the new gear. I may be wrong but it just doesn't seem like it would be an efficient way of doing the upgrade.

[Ranger626]

The thread seems to be drifting to aftermarket pylons.  That's all good.  I hope we see some soon.  

 

But what I'm really hoping for is some discussion of the placement of the radar controller in the rear cockpit.   Z-M provides parts for both positions:   right side of the RIO's panel and center of that panel.   Instructions indicate use parts for the right side.   My references indicate F-4J had that controller in the center.    I'm guessing perhaps the location switch happened sometime during the production run of the F-4J.

 

Can anyone advise when during production the location of the radar controller stick moved from right side of the RIO's panel to center of that panel?    I'm modelling a Vietnam era (1972) F-4J and in a quandary about the rear cockpit.  

 

I've skipped ahead to later parts of the kit's construction and continue to be impressed with its quality.    Solved the outboard weapons pylon problem by robbing them from an Academy F-4B and begun work on intake/engine/exhausts assembly.   Nice.

 

 

[madmanrick]

 

1 hour ago, Ranger626 said:

But what I'm really hoping for is some discussion of the placement of the radar controller in the rear cockpit.   Z-M provides parts for both positions:   right side of the RIO's panel and center of that panel.   Instructions indicate use parts for the right side.   My references indicate F-4J had that controller in the center.    I'm guessing perhaps the location switch happened sometime during the production run of the F-4J.

Unless I am mistaken, the answer you seek may be here:

 

http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/296390-f-4j-rio-cockpit-clarified-a-little/

[Ranger626]

Thank you Madmanrick and BillS.    That's exactly the information I needed.

[Rex]

Jpk, just trying to help you with your timeline.

 

But, there was no "transition from the N to the J"

 

here's the order,,,,,,F-4B were built new, switching over to F-4J new builds,,,,,,then the project Bee-line rebuild program for F-4N from existing F-4B, then the rebuild program for F-4S from F-4J.

[Stefan buysse]

On ‎16‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 8:09 AM, JeffreyK said:

I never produced inboard pylons, neither 1:48 nor 1:72. Those are Airea/Quickboost/Aerobonus (can't remember which) and very nice.

I will try to get onto the outboard pylons as soon as I can, reworking the existing 1:72 CAD.  There are two or three more areas I'd lile to address, depending on what the competition is doing. But with several ongoing projects it will take time, unless of course Rick sends me his pay cheques so I can quit my day job....

J

 

Jeffrey,

 

If you look into inboard pylons, I could use some 1/72 Navy style inboard pylons for Hasegawa kits.

How are the 1/48 Skywarrior canopies coming along? The last thing I remember is that you said the test shots weren't satisfactory yet.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

 

[tobiK]

Air force style inboard pylons were available from airdoc in 1/48, including sidewinder rails. Not sure if there are still some sets at the dealers. I do not see that item on their homepage but just send a email and ask about, why not?

 

[jpk]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 1:10 PM, Rex said:

Jpk, just trying to help you with your timeline.

 

But, there was no "transition from the N to the J"

 

here's the order,,,,,,F-4B were built new, switching over to F-4J new builds,,,,,,then the project Bee-line rebuild program for F-4N from existing F-4B, then the rebuild program for F-4S from F-4J.

Hi Rex. I understand the progression. I may have not been clear. However I speculated the radar upgrade to the J was not applied to the N when they went through rework from a B. I certainly may be wrong. My Phantom resources are very limited to the old D&S book on Navy Phantoms. I really should do something about that as I have several Phantom kits. All the photos I've seen of N's have the controller in the lower right corner and same radar screen as the B. Was the radar updated on the N's to J equipment just leaving the controller where it was and keeping the same radar screen intact? Like I said I can certainly be wrong on that assumption. There were so many mods to the phantom over the career it is possible.

[Tailspin Turtle]

The early Js, some or all with the short -8 afterburners, did not have the AWG-10 radar installed since (as with the -10 engines) production deliveries were behind schedule. My understanding is that they never received a radar since they, the so-called "lead-nose" Js because ballast was installed in lieu of the radar, wound up being the Blue Angels new mounts. As far as I know, the Ns never received the J's radar.