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So I was just looking at some photos of some USN F-18Es to gather information to start my Hasegawa F-18E. Found a picture of an F-18E about to launch from a carrier and in a close up shot of the cockpit you can see the names of the crew below the canopy rail. I thought it was interesting that the back seater had CAG below his name and the pilot had DCAG below his name. I would have thought the CAG would be in front. Doesn't CAG stand for Commander Air Group? The big cheese for the air contingent on a carrier? Maybe it is like a chauffeur thing :dontknow:

Just curious here as I am not really up to speed on how the USN works for who flies where.

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Hi Collin

 

Thanks for the picture and the information. Actually it is another picture of another crew. It is taken from a lower viewpoint but you can still read the names. I cannot even tell what unit unlike the VF-103 Sqn in your pic. No stripes or anything in mine other than yellow ejection triangles. Maybe VF-213?

 

So this must be a common thing then with CAG in back and DCAG in front? And was I right and CAG is still CAG meaning Top Guy?

Edited by skyhawk174
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CAG (Commander Air Group) is the owner of the AirWing...he is the top 0-6 in that food chain.  The Skipper/O-6 being the owner of the ship and crew.  The two work together to serve the embarked Admiral (Carrier Strike Group Commander).   

 

Two out of my three CAG's in Japan were NFO's (one E-2, the other an A-6 BN turned F-14 RIO).  On the " Family model" CAG birds (X00 series F-14, F/A-18F, S-3B, E-2, EA-6B/Growler) they will normally put the CAG's name (if a NFO) under/near a typical NFO seat.  Example:  S-3's and EA-6B's I've seen have a NFO CAG's name under the front right seat (a normal NFO crew position).  On the F-14/F-18F, it would be the aft/rear seat.  I've seen E-2's with CAG's name back aft under the fuselage upper escape hatch where the NFO/'Moles' live.  On single seat aircraft CAG's name normally goes on the left side and DCAG on the right side. 

Of course there will always be exceptions to these rules, some folks may have photo evidence contrary to what I have seen in the fleet.

 

Cheers

Collin

Edited by Collin
clarification
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Great topic by the way...

So the CAG is the boss over the whole carrier air wing, right?  Like in The Final Countdown....Kinda like a dual hatter ?  The skipper of VF-84 and in charge of the whole airwing ?

Edited by adamitri
3am typos
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8 hours ago, Scooby said:

I've seen a navigator command a C-130 Squadron, you certainly don't see it often, a pilot isn't always in command.

As far as the Navy goes...squadron command in pilot/NFO platforms (F model Hornets/E-2/P-3/Growler) are typically 50-50 CO/XO between Pilot and NFO.  Very rarely will you find a squadron front office (CO/XO) that are both the same pilot or NFO designator.  Of course you don't have that issue in single seat pilot commands or in the helo community.

 

I have been part of USAF squadrons where, while being much more pilot centric, also have a blended "front office" of pilot/NAV/WSO and now CSO (Combat System Operator) sharing squadron leadership (AFSOC you see this a lot with the -130 and U-28 squadrons).  B-1 unit I was briefly associated with, the Commanding Officer was a F-4 turned B-1 WSO backseater.

 

Cheers

Collin

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1 hour ago, adamitri said:

Great topic by the way...

So the CAG is the boss over the whole carrier air wing, right?  Like in The Final Countdown....Kinda like a dual hatter ?  The skipper of VF-84 and in charge of the whole airwing ?

CAG and his/her staff are separate from the squadrons of the AirWing.  The CAG/DCAG may come from a certain background (say F-18 hornet pilot), but run the entire AirWing and are not technically part of any one squadron. 

 

Now I have seen both extremes in CAG's.  My first was an old had A-7 turned F-18 pilot that never flew with anyone but the three embarked F-18 squadrons. Never saw him in a S-3, or a Helo, or any aircraft that wasn't a baby Hornet.  Lot of folks in the AirWing didn't much care for that.  Remember: CAGs/DCAGs do still fly, to keep current and remain tactically/administratively "in touch" with the individual squadrons within the AirWing, but they are there to lead the wing...not any particular squadron.  I have also had CAG's that every other day would be flying with a different squadron.  The RIO and E-2 NFO CAG's I had would one day be sitting next to me in our S-3, few days later I would hear them in the helo flying plane guard (or out drilling holes in the tube of the E-2 Hawkeye).  They flew with the Prowlers, and the few times the Tomcats might be working....they would fly with them.  Those were the CAG's (IMO) that the entire AirWing liked because they flew with everyone. 

 

In the movie, CAG wore all the cool F-14/VF-84 but in reality...the "real" CVW-8 CAG onboard the NIMITZ (at the time of the filming) was a A-6E PILOT!!

 

Time for a cup of coffee then off to the Richmond model show.

 

Cheers

Collin

Edited by Collin
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57 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Do CAGs have to be proficient in all of those seats?

Oh heck no, but these folks have been around the block a bunch.  They may do actual mission stuff in the aircraft they are rated in, but if they are flying with other aircraft in the AirWing...it's more to get a feel for the aircraft, it's squadron folks and the different missions.  More like a boss walking the shop floor trying to keep in touch with the real work being done by his/her folks. 

Cheers

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I think the requirements are that CAG/DCAG be proficient in two types. If one is an NFO, they can maybe ride RIO in the F-14 and BN in the A-6, and if the other is a pilot, he can handle front seat in his original type plus one other. Gator Gilchrist mentioned that he chose to be proficient in the F-4 Phantom and A-7 Corsair during his turn in the top spot, allowing him to cover 4 out of the 7 squadrons in the airwing. Though now, we're looking now at CVWs loaded with variations of the F/A-18. A CAG or DCAG that is a pilot can cover nearly all the squadrons. An NFO might be limited to F/A-18F, EA-18G, and maybe having some knowledge in the E-2. It's certainly easier  now than it was 20 years ago when there were as may as 6 types across 8 squadrons.

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1 hour ago, Swordsman422 said:

I think the requirements are that CAG/DCAG be proficient in two types. If one is an NFO, they can maybe ride RIO in the F-14 and BN in the A-6, and if the other is a pilot, he can handle front seat in his original type plus one other. Gator Gilchrist mentioned that he chose to be proficient in the F-4 Phantom and A-7 Corsair during his turn in the top spot, allowing him to cover 4 out of the 7 squadrons in the airwing. Though now, we're looking now at CVWs loaded with variations of the F/A-18. A CAG or DCAG that is a pilot can cover nearly all the squadrons. An NFO might be limited to F/A-18F, EA-18G, and maybe having some knowledge in the E-2. It's certainly easier  now than it was 20 years ago when there were as may as 6 types across 8 squadrons.

Much easier for a pilot than a NFO to be proficient enough in the aircraft from a combat mission perspective (normal safety of flight is different).  A F-18 WSO type really isn't going to know the EW backside mission well enough to be effective in that Growler seat (on a combat hop).  Flying around the boat on a tanker track, no issue.  F-18 WSO type isn't going to hop in the tube of a E-2 and be able to perform at the level of a Mission Commander managing the entire air battle.  I won't get started with hunting a sub in a helo or S-3, that took a lot of practice (that's why I always flew in the backseat while CAG sat front right).  

 

Not only are pilot CAG's proficient on a few T/M/S....the LSO's in our AirWing were typically dual hatted on platforms (some up to three).  Both our lead CAG LSO's were S-3 pilots, but one was qualed on the Hornet....the other on the F-14.  Heck, the one CAG LSO who grew up in S-3's and was dual qualed in the Tomcat was a Top 10 Hook in the Tomcat and none of the normal F-14 pilots were in the running.  Man that guy could fly.  The other S-3 CAG LSO was eventually a F-18 Hornet CO, he was really good with that jet.  He by far is still the best pilot I ever sat next to in an S-3 on the ball.  He moved those controls like a ADD kid....complete mixing bowl of stick and throttle movements constantly...but the plane just came down on rails to a 2 or 3 wire each time.  It was a testament to the skill of those LSO types. 

 

Break Break

 

BZ to the folks in Richmond Va today...you put on a great show.  Nice meeting up with the SOMD folks and great seeing some old friends.

 

Cheers

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15 hours ago, Collin said:

As far as the Navy goes...squadron command in pilot/NFO platforms (F model Hornets/E-2/P-3/Growler) are typically 50-50 CO/XO between Pilot and NFO.  Very rarely will you find a squadron front office (CO/XO) that are both the same pilot or NFO designator.  Of course you don't have that issue in single seat pilot commands or in the helo community.

 

I have been part of USAF squadrons where, while being much more pilot centric, also have a blended "front office" of pilot/NAV/WSO and now CSO (Combat System Operator) sharing squadron leadership (AFSOC you see this a lot with the -130 and U-28 squadrons).  B-1 unit I was briefly associated with, the Commanding Officer was a F-4 turned B-1 WSO backseater.

 

Cheers

Collin

 

I only see this once in a Hercules Squadron in the CAF (now RCAF).

 

I also served in fighter and helicopter Squadrons, there it was always a pilot as the CO (the other flying positions didn't exist).

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