11bee Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 See here: http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=256201&page=1 Not sure I'm liking these, something doesn't look right. Are those pants with the oversized thigh pockets accurate? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 They look a little fat to me but the uniforms look good to me. They represent the two piece Nomex flight suit. I have one in my model room Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floyd S. Werner, Jr. Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 From Michael Campbell, circa 1971. He looks so young. Didn't we all. Compare this to the figures. I'd say they nailed it. Floyd Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 17 hours ago, Floyd S. Werner, Jr. said: They look a little fat to me but the uniforms look good to me. They represent the two piece Nomex flight suit. I have one in my model room Floyd I've made quite a few trips in them, and never saw a crew look like that. Never saw a flight vest like that. First of all flight crews slept in nice warm beds with a mattress. Often wore tailored pants and shirts (some call them "pegged"). The uniform those guys have on would have cooked them in the 120 degree temps and 75% humidity. Door gunners often wore bullet proof vests, but as it got hot they'd leave them home. Never a flak vest! When you board a chopper, you always plan for the crash landing. That 45 is just about good enough to be put where the sun don't shine. You never ever wore a hand gun within eyesight. That made you out as somebody special, and then became one of the primary targets. No patches or rank as well. Maybe the crews in the rear might, but never out west. I went down five times and was ready. Had my rifle and 21 mags. My 45 was hidden under the mags. My main concern was water, and smoke grenades. After a crew member went down a couple times he soon learned to be ready, and what to do. Travel light, and get at least 400 yards away from the downed ship (hope you pulled the sixty) gary Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hoping Norbert / Reedoak gets around to casting some Vietnam era flight crews. He'll put the others to shame. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
salvador001 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Hope Reedoak could release the nam era SPH-4 helmets, so as the pilots and crews. Rod. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) Norbert would need everything here which for anyone who has spent collecting it is pricey. It would need to be shipped overseas, also pricey. He can scan it all in and I'm with you on hoping he gets around to this era. I have everything here including the correct Vietnam air crew body armor (no back plate, pilots didn't wear them as they had armored seats). Also have both the APH5 and SPH4 Vietnam dated. Sold my Seawolf APH6 with dual ramshackle visor( The kind ILM used to make the X-Wing Fighter pilots helmets from). The Bravo 6 pilots are wearing the old style APH5 with the new Nomex and chickenvest. It was done. They make good figures and their door gunners are great too. It's going to come down to what time frame you are depicting. Early crews DID wear standard Vietnam era frag vests before the specialized air crew body armor came out which was worn by pilots and Door Gunners alike. Jungle fatigues were worn before well before the 2 piece Nomex as were the OG-107s. Early gloves were all gray leather. Not the two tone nomex and leather. Edited March 10, 2017 by snake36bravo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 10, 2017 Author Share Posted March 10, 2017 That soldier needs a shave! Also, thought jungle boots were a big no-go for flight crews? Qustion, when did they start issuing the mesh survival vest in Vietnam? Was it worn over the body armor? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 hours ago, 11bee said: That soldier needs a shave! Also, thought jungle boots were a big no-go for flight crews? Qustion, when did they start issuing the mesh survival vest in Vietnam? Was it worn over the body armor? the mesh vest would be worn under the bullet proof vest. Keep in mind that not everybody wore a bullet proof vest. I've see a couple different styles with one almost looking like a medieval steel plate. Body armor didn't work all that great, unless you were fly very low in the valleys allowing them to shoot down at you. And even then, they were useless against a 51 caliber machine gun. I never paid a lot of attention to what kind of shoes a guy wore, but would have thought they'd have wanted jungle boots when they went down. Guys in the rear wore the zippers in their boots (sold them in the local markets). A couple guys in my squad used them. They didn't work well if you have to walk a couple klicks in the bush (would work loose and then give you some blisters). As for when did they start issuing the mesh vest? I never saw any in 67 or 68, but saw somebody wearing one at Cam Rhan Bay at the end of Feb. 69. Now that vest may have been made for the guy at the local tailors (most vest were). Been too long to remember the exact details about that vest. I did see several that went on like a shirt, and had extra pockets for gear. Looks like they'd been in the way of everything. Most crew members I was around simply had a small ruck sack with the stuff the felt they needed close by. glt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 hours ago, 11bee said: That soldier needs a shave! Also, thought jungle boots were a big no-go for flight crews? Qustion, when did they start issuing the mesh survival vest in Vietnam? Was it worn over the body armor? The nylon in the jungle boots melts. Despite that you still saw air crews wearing them. VIPs of course didnt change their jungle boots for a flight. You see an uptick in all leather boots as they figured things out. A lot of Vietnam Army Aviation, really anything else too, was lessons learned. Smoke grenades don't float either but there was a request to make ones that did. Didn't happen. The wonderful image Floyd posted also shows a no no - His top should be tucked into the trousers. The two piece Nomex was fire retardant but it still burned just at a lower flash rate than jungles. Bravo 6 door gunners are nice too as are the old DML U.S. Helicopter Crew Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) The survival vest was US issued gear to flight crews. Just like there was initially a shortage of two piece Nomex to go around so too with this survival vest. In this image from the 189th Assault Helicopter Company showing Dave Speer taken at Kontum Airfield in Dec 68 you can see it's features clearly. There was a packing order to what went into the vest. Notice that while Mr. Speer got the survival vest he is not in two piece Nomex. Instead he is wearing 3rd Pattern jungle fatigues which were the most common issue of that type. I've never seen the survival vest worn under the chicken plate. Remember those pockets on the vest are packed with things to keep you alive should you be shot down...signal mirror, first aid, potable water in packs, matches, etc. You could wear them over the chicken plate easily. Not the other way around. Edited March 11, 2017 by snake36bravo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Here is another image showing Lt. Rick Schwab wearing the survival vest over his Chicken Plate body armor. He is also in two piece Nomex Rick was with C 2/17 as Condor 47. Two piece Nomex (shirt and trousers, Flying, Hot Weather, Fire Resistant) introduced 1969 Nomex gloves ( Flyer's Gloves, Nylon, Fire Resistant) introduced mid-1968 Chicken-Plates ( Body Armor, Fragmentation, Small Arms Protective, Aircrewman) mid-1968 Survival vests. SRU-21/P (Vest, Survival, Nylon, Mesh) best I could find was mid 60s Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 Nice pics Snake. One other point- I read that only pilots removed the rear chicken plate. Gunners didn't have armored seats so many opted to keep the rear plate as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) That's right 11bee. Also in case you're interested Bravo 6 makes killer set of Vietnam helicopter pilots inflight Kit B6-35073 They are in two piece Nomex, APH5 flight helmets, chickenplate on, one wears jungle boots the other all leather. I believe Bravo 6 does it the same way Norbert does. 3D scan of 1:1 then scaled down Edited March 11, 2017 by snake36bravo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 I read on some forum that the bravo-8 figs were inaccurate because nobody would roll their sleeves up,because you'd lose protection. is that true? in the movies its seems really hot in vietnam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HeavyArty Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) Whoever is telling you that doesn't know what they are talking about. Plenty of pilots and crewmen in Vietnam rolled their sleeves. It might not have been allowed "by the reg", but was still done. Edited March 25, 2017 by HeavyArty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
FM-Whip Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Just an additional bit of info on the two-piece Nomex - there was actually an earlier model of Nomex pants. The pocket pattern and zippers interfered with movement and controls so the design was changed and what you normally see in photos is the later design. Nomex did not always have Velcro fasteners either. In 1977 I was in an aviation company where the CO ordered flight crews to get their Nomex starched and pressed because used Nomex looks rumpled and eventually it pills. Starch burns... As far as fire safety, the official regs were that you were supposed to have the sleeves down and sealed, gloves on, pants not bloused, collar closed, etc. Nomex is hot to wear (it doesn't breathe well) so it's easy to understand why crews in Vietnam rolled the sleeves up and took other shortcuts. In 1977 I met a pilot at Rucker who was head of Army aviation safety. He was the walking-talking example of why you would want to keep your Nomex sealed as much as possible. In Vietnam he had been in a crash where burning fuel went down his collar opening under his shirt, on both his arms and hands, and in his helmet among other places. He had lost his ears and many of his fingers (he had webbing on one hand that had a hole in it which he could hold a cigarette with) , and I think his eyelids and lips too With his badly scarred face and head being covered with glossy pink tissue, he looked like the incredible melting man. When this guy gave lectures on wearing Nomex people listened. Met him again at Hood in 1979, walking down the street, with people staring at him. He was one tough SOB to have survived the initial crash and burn and the many later reconstructive surgeries. Another issue with Nomex was the wear of metal insignia such as rank or wings. Those could prove dangerous in a crash also. John Hairell tpn18@yahoo.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 (edited) thanks for the info, I think it was someone on Armorama saying the figures were inaccurate due to sleeves, I figured people would roll up sleeves due to heat, I'll get some of these figures. I have always wanted to build Vietnam era helicopters since reading Chickenhawk, the first model I ever built was a 1/72 Aurora Cheyenne, I hope someday we'll get a KH Vietnam era Cobra too. I love the photos, man Americans were such hard asses back then, everyone looks like a cowboy, now its a shame.…. I cant imagine what it was like flying into and over the jungle in the heat shooting and flying people in and out and people serving because it was their duty. Edited March 25, 2017 by DarkKnight Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HeavyArty Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 15 hours ago, DarkKnight said: Americans were such hard asses back then, everyone looks like a cowboy, now its a shame.…. I cant imagine what it was like flying into and over the jungle in the heat shooting and flying people in and out and people serving because it was their duty. I would not agree with that assessment. Yes, plenty served because they felt it was their duty, however, there was also a draft that brought most soldiers into the Army. I would say more serve now due to a feeling of duty since we are an all-volunteer force. The guys in Iraq and A'stan are doing equally heroic work as was done during Vietnam. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hawkwrench Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Totally agree Gino. Heroes may rise up anywhere when the time comes, but I have the utmost respect for the men and women warriors whether duty or volunteer who are willing to die in order to continue to protect our freedom that we enjoy today! Tim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 whoa! no offense meant towards our current all volunteer Army, they are all heroes and have my respect! Im just saying it was a different time with different attitudes than todays beta male society, but back on topic, in the picture with pilot wearing an all white helmet and all grey gloves, I presume thats early in the war? is that a thermos behind him and smoke grenades in the helicopter? I wish there was an archive of tail codes and pictures of crew from that era, showing nose art etc. etc. I think its amazing how every now and then someone who is a modeler takes pictures and shares them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 26, 2017 Author Share Posted March 26, 2017 On the gloves, yes - as noted above, they were used early in the war. With regard to rolled up sleeves, personally I would like to have seen those figures with the sleeves down. For two reasons - one is that the vast majority of pictures of Vietnam era flight crews who were issued nomex (not talking about early war cotton uniforms like some of the pics above) kept their sleeves rolled down (for the reasons John noted above). Also, if you are going to use these figures for a post-Vietnam, through mid/late 80's flight crew, I'm fairly certain that no one was flying with sleeves rolled up in that time frame. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michael A. Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Vietnam Era Helicopter Names & Nose Art John Brennan has published 4 paperback books on the subject: ‘US Army Helicopter Names in Vietnam’ was the first. The two listed below contain the most photographs and I would highly recommend the entire series to the serious Vietnam historian and modeler. Vietnam War Helicopter Art: U.S. Army Rotor Aircraft (Stackpole Military Photo Series) Paperback – February 1, 2014 Vietnam War Helicopter Art: U.S. Army Rotor Aircraft (Stackpole Military Photo Series) Paperback – September 1, 2012 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DarkKnight Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 thanks for the heads up, I ordered the art books, someone once told me that nomex was a weird synthetic and when hot it swelled making it hotter and when cold it contracted making it colder and therefore was always uncomfortable Quote Link to post Share on other sites
UH-1Mad Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Nomex hasn't changed either - Always uncomfortable in the heat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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