John Tapsell Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I know this is a long shot but here goes... I'm trying to track down more information on an F4 crash that happened in October 1973. Extensive searching on the web has turned up several brief references to it, but nothing of great detail. What I have is as follows: October 1973 Germany 36 TFW (Bitburg) The F4 crashed after hitting an M113 APC during a low level pass that occurred during a field exercise (Reforger) Pilot and WSO were killed, as were two of the APC crew (and two others injured) A photo taken post-incident shows the upturned M113 being recovered, so the collision seems to have been more than just clipping the APC's aerials Any suggestions about where I might be able to find more would be appreciated. Thanks, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I did a memorial build for an S-2 Tracker that crashed in a nearby town when I was a kid. Filed a FOIA request, got the entire accident report sent to me. This should work for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bob Beary Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, 11bee said: I did a memorial build for an S-2 Tracker that crashed in a nearby town when I was a kid. Filed a FOIA request, got the entire accident report sent to me. This should work for you. Where are you in SE MA? I'm from Brockton originally, now in Syracuse NY. Saw the Blue Angels at Weymouth NAS many, many years ago. Edited March 10, 2017 by Bob Beary spelling Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Small world. I'm south of Brockton, the Tracker I built went down in Rockland, 1978. I saw the Blues at SoWey too. Good memories. Not much left of the base these days. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lancer512 Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 (edited) 13-Oct-1973 F-4E 67-0225 36th TFW / 525th TFS crashed after collision with an M136 (M557?) during Reforger73 FTX Edited March 11, 2017 by Lancer512 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Tapsell Posted March 11, 2017 Author Share Posted March 11, 2017 7 hours ago, Lancer512 said: 13-Oct-1973 F-4E 67-0225 36th TFW / 525th TFS crashed after collision with an M136 (M557?) during Reforger73 FTX Thanks Lancer - the specifics of the aircraft are very useful. The vehicle was definitely an M113 hull (could have been an M163 Vulcan I suppose), but the hull isn't tall enough for a 577 command track. The photo I've seen (which is credited to Stars and Stripes) shows the vehicle upside down and being recovered. Thanks, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You can only tie the record for the lowest buzz job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Ludgate Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 On 3/10/2017 at 12:43 PM, John Tapsell said: I know this is a long shot but here goes... I'm trying to track down more information on an F4 crash that happened in October 1973. Extensive searching on the web has turned up several brief references to it, but nothing of great detail. What I have is as follows: October 1973 Germany 36 TFW (Bitburg) The F4 crashed after hitting an M113 APC during a low level pass that occurred during a field exercise (Reforger) Pilot and WSO were killed, as were two of the APC crew (and two others injured) A photo taken post-incident shows the upturned M113 being recovered, so the collision seems to have been more than just clipping the APC's aerials Any suggestions about where I might be able to find more would be appreciated. Thanks, John The F4 was from the 525th TFS, Bitburg, Germany. The pilot was CPT George Williams. The young backseater was new to the squadron, and I can’t remember his name. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve Ludgate Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 The briefing I was at stated CPT Williams ( sortie leader) briefed a maximum 10° AOA, but his attack run was steeper than that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Michael A. Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Check with the Army Safety Center at Ft. Rucker, AL. They will have details as to the Army's prospective on this accident. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted August 9, 2019 Share Posted August 9, 2019 Holy thread revival. I still suggest you file a FOIA request. I’ve done these with both Navy and Army subjects and have received full accident reports, no reason to believe the AF is any different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JimmyD Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 On 3/11/2017 at 10:26 AM, John Tapsell said: John - I witnessed that plane crash. Wow... On 3/11/2017 at 10:26 AM, John Tapsell said: Thanks Lancer - the specifics of the aircraft are very useful. The vehicle was definitely an M113 hull (could have been an M163 Vulcan I suppose), but the hull isn't tall enough for a 577 command track. The photo I've seen (which is credited to Stars and Stripes) shows the vehicle upside down and being recovered. Thanks, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JimmyD Posted August 29, 2019 Share Posted August 29, 2019 John, I witnessed the F4 crash during Reforger V. Wow... I was with Bravo, 3/64 Armor. Do do you have any idea where I could find archived photos from this FTX? Jim Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Remrich Posted May 16, 2020 Share Posted May 16, 2020 Hello Jimmy, here you can find some photos from the crash site. https://www.facebook.com/Military.Database/photos/pcb.2159841224241624/2159835827575497/?type=3&theater Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jpk Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 On 3/10/2017 at 2:53 PM, Bob Beary said: Where are you in SE MA? I'm from Brockton originally, now in Syracuse NY. Saw the Blue Angels at Weymouth NAS many, many years ago. My dad was stationed at NAS So Weymouth back in the 50's to the mid 60's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 17, 2020 Share Posted May 17, 2020 59 minutes ago, jpk said: My dad was stationed at NAS So Weymouth back in the 50's to the mid 60's. It's a small world Pretty interesting how many ARC'rs have had a connection to this base. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikar Posted May 19, 2020 Share Posted May 19, 2020 It's amazing that anybody got out of that at all. It's a shame they didn't show the other side of the track so you could see the actual damage. A standard track comes out at about 14 1/2 tons without people and weapons. Even that amount of aluminum is a substantial impact for a F-4. I guess the impact area would be on the other side of the vehicle. Anybody inside of that thing would be thrown all over the place. The driver would be in a smaller space, with a little room on his right side for the engine panel, a bit more room on the left for a recessed area for his weapon and ammo. There is very little room forward except for a little ring of covered felt padding about 1/2 in thick, just below the hatch. You can be seriously hurt if you hit that padding at almost any speed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jpk Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 On 5/17/2020 at 10:41 AM, 11bee said: It's a small world Pretty interesting how many ARC'rs have had a connection to this base. I'm from Whistah. (Worcester) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted May 21, 2020 Share Posted May 21, 2020 4 hours ago, jpk said: I'm from Whistah. (Worcester) Great to hear from a fellow Masshole! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juan Crayton Posted April 5, 2022 Share Posted April 5, 2022 The army vehicle was a M125A1 mortar carrier assigned to Company C, 1st Battalion, 18th Infantry Regiment, 1st Infantry Division, Fort Riley, Kansas. The two soldiers killed were SP4s Jerry Mays and James Milton. The accident occurred while the F4 was simulating an attack on blue ground forces which had been advancing toward red force defenses. However, since red and blue forces were becoming entangled, a pause to ground operations had been declared and the red and blue forces were directed to separate. Because the mortar platoon was in a follow and support role, it had deployed on the reverse slope of gently sloping terrain behind the advancing elements to simulate indirect fire support. However, when the exercise was paused, Company C stopped its advance, regrouped and was counter marching administratively toward the location of the mortar platoon. Because of the pause in the exercise, the F4s which continued to simulate their attacks on blue forces were largely ignored by the countermarching elements and the mortar platoon until one aircraft crashed into one of the mortar carriers after strafing the column of counter marching elements headed toward the position of the mortar platoon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Tapsell Posted April 5, 2022 Author Share Posted April 5, 2022 Thanks Juan - that's the most detailed information I've seen. Much appreciated. I'd spotted that the vehicle was a mortar carrier as the roof hatches are visible in one of the images. However, I wasn't sure if it was a 106 or a 125. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dan Allison Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 All: I was detached to the Bitburg crash recovery unit when this happened. I helped retrieve the remains of the aircraft and brought it back to Bitburg. It sat in the crash hanger for months and towards the end started getting real "gammie" as it were!. I was on the team that checked the flight control system. We proved that the continuity of the flight controls were in tact the time of the crash. And what a crash it was. I was the one that found a hand and part of an arm under the left speed brake while in the hanger.. I don't want to get to graphic but the remains of the crew did not equal the weight of the crew so as to illustrate the severity of the crash. The aircraft was traveling below Mach at the time of the collision with the APC. The aircraft scattered for some distance. We found that the back seater had initiated the ejection sequence and was half way up the rail at impact with the ground. It was a non survivable accident and it went down on the books as Pilot error -- they were showing off for a group of Army personel that was near a "roach coach" near by the initial contact point. Truly tragic but very preventable. I think I still have some photos of what was left -- I haven't looked at them for 30 plus years but it was one of the first crashes that I delt with. I am no novice to this type of investigation as I had a 38 year FAA Career . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Alternative 4 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Thanks for sharing Dan. Certainly puts a human touch on the crash, the back seater being half way up the rail is particularly harrowing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
John Tapsell Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Dan - thanks very much for taking the time to share this information. It is much appreciated. My knowledge of F4s and M113s is purely that gathered over many years of building models of both types (especially the M113 family). However, to have both involved in a single incident piqued my interest. It's a depressing case to read because a moment of poor judgement was all it took to cause so much tragedy. Out of interest, can you recall whether it resulted in recommendations or changes to operational procedures at the time? Thanks, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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