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thank you for showing me the welds lines. i plan to add them myself.  

not a deal breaker...to each his own!

and agree with Janman that, for me, what miss the most about the AMK MiG-31 are the hinges (for me, on the front part of the fuselage) 

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50 minutes ago, mingwin said:

thank you for showing me the welds lines. i plan to add them myself.  

not a deal breaker...to each his own!

and agree with Janman that, for me, what miss the most about the AMK MiG-31 are the hinges (for me, on the front part of the fuselage) 

Are you kidding me??? The weld beads look like they're between 6mm and 8mm. That calculates out to .006" in 1/48th scale, or one and one half times as wide as a human hair! If they were 12mm wide, your still looking at about .008". Now go and measure the HB kit and you'll probably find them in .015" area at least and probably wider.

gary

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It seems that a completely futile war has started again. The AMK camp on one side, defending it at all costs (blindly in some cases) and the HB camp on the other side.

 

This is just model building (people dont forget it), everyone has his choice and so let it be. Some people cannot tolerate opinions which are opposite to the one they have. This is sad, but there is nothing we can do about it. Have to let it go.

 

Returning to the original topic I prefer the HB kit. It is not only the bumps, rivets, fences, panels  . . . over all it is a more authentic representation of the real aircraft. It has its mistakes, even some very stupid ones but just as the AMK camp is saying that it is easy to correct the kits mistakes, the same goes for the HB kit.

 

Have to add that I was involved in some design of the AMK kit (just a small part which is close to my heart). So I should be also bias towards it?  I don’t think so. One should have an objective view.

 

Just look at photos of the real aircraft and compare it to the kit, which ever manufacturer it is from and make your own decision! This is what is important!!!

 

Best regards

Gabor

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4 hours ago, foxmulder_ms said:

@Berkut, do you realize how biased you are acting?

 

You are happy to parade the mistakes HB kit has but ok with hiding AMK ones.

 

If AMK has some super detail it is "good engineering" but if HB one has it, it is just a nice bonus which is super specific detail to be ignored, really?

 

Those welding what let Mig-25/31 fuselages cope with the high speeds. Without them there is no Mach 3. For some (like myself) there are significant. 

Sigh.

 

In what way am i biased, exactly? Because i worked on the AMK kit? Well, that is news. Looking forward to your next statement that the Earth is round and water is wet.

 

Just because i worked on the AMK project in no way disproves the things i pointed out in just that frontal view. Those are mistakes in the HB kit unless you are able to prove otherwise. And you are clearly not able to do that. And i have listed AMK's mistakes previously (several times) and i am not trying to kill the conversation and try to "hide" anything about the AMK kit. That is just pure nonsense. I have pointed out errors with AMK kit, in public, that no one else previously pointed out. That is literally the opposite of "hiding" anything. I welcome critique of the AMK kit and i have in fact been keeping a list of the bugs i am aware of. I have for example learned about the small engine bumps that AMK missed because Gabor pointed it out.

 

Your post is just noise. It contains no argument, it doesnt provide any new information to anyone. Gabor, Mofo, Janman etc, all of their posts contain information or some sort of critique. You on the other hand, as usual, is just trying to kill the conversation. At best you are acting like a heckler, you dont provide any arguments or provide any information.

 

As to the last point, MiG-31 is not able to fly at Mach 3 for your information. Welded panellines or not. You trying to pass it off them being as some sort of radically important details is just silly. They are just a manufacturing solution to a problem, like anything else. Again, they are nice details in HB kit but that is pretty much it. Using your logic, i could claim MiG-31 couldnt fly at all just because HB kit doesnt have actuator on the wings, let alone Mach 3...

 

4 hours ago, janman said:

Fencers? You're talking about wing fences, Berkut? But you seem to be right.

 

Yeah, they should be angled with the wing and be 90 degrees vs the wing, not vs the ground. Should be possible to fix i think, but none the less, it is a bug.

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1 hour ago, ya-gabor said:

Returning to the original topic I prefer the HB kit. It is not only the bumps, rivets, fences, panels  . . . over all it is a more authentic representation of the real aircraft. It has its mistakes, even some very stupid ones but just as the AMK camp is saying that it is easy to correct the kits mistakes, the same goes for the HB kit.

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

Serious question; if it is not about bumps, rivets, fences, panels (and i agree, 99% of it is not), in what way is HB MiG-31 more authentic representation of the real aircraft than the AMK kit?

 

Because the way i see it, those 7 mistakes i pointed out (among with others, like the tail between the exhaust being wrong and possible nose issues) qualifies it as a weaker representation of the real aircraft than the AMK kit. Yes, both AMK and HB kits have their faults, but the number of them and the severity is quite different. Really, the largest accuracy issue with the AMK kit is the shape of underside of the parachute housing. But atleast the landing doors look correct...

 

And on a more general note the the hinges on the nose for AMK kit could not be added due to technology limitations apparently. But i dont have any more details on that.

Edited by Berkut
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I don't see this pointless and I don't think people here are just for arguing. I'm very interested to hear and see the actual factual base on which the accuracy of the HB is leaning. Since the certain extra details it possess don't matter after all, it only seems to be based on some feeling. On the other hand, the same can possibly be said of the AMK kit as well. Maybe it's the engineering that has mesmerized me so profoundly that the more traditional HB kit seems a bit dull and technologically outdated.

 

I really want to know. After all, I've never even owned an 1/48 kit before.:cheers:

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I am so sorry, but I prefer the HB kit. I like it because I like it more! Just the same way as I like some types of food, drinks or girls . . .

Somewhere before I did give a long list of my pros and cons on the HB kit.

 

It seems from the above pages that it is completely pointless and futile to comment and say what I like or for anyone else to say if they like something other than AMK.

 

One day I will build one of the two Foxhound kits which AMK sent to me so very kindly but first it will be the HB kit when time comes for the MiG-31. Sorry if this offends anyone but for the moment we are not in a dictatorship where we are told what we have to like!

 

Sorry for having my own opinion.

I like it this way!

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Um. That seems rather like an over reaction. I think i asked a fair question...

 

You dont have to agree with me or anyone else, i asked purely what your opinion is.

Edited by Berkut
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9 hours ago, Berkut said:

I spot half a dozen of mistakes (in picture form here);

<...>

4; Shape of the landing gear doors are not even slightly wrong... They just completely off.

<...>

 

Which in turn doesn't bode well for the overall accuracy of the fuselage shape in that area. Assuming, of course, the landing gear doors are engineered to fit nicely when assembling them closed (for an in-flight build).

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6 hours ago, ChesshireCat said:

Are you kidding me??? The weld beads look like they're between 6mm and 8mm. That calculates out to .006" in 1/48th scale, or one and one half times as wide as a human hair! If they were 12mm wide, your still looking at about .008". Now go and measure the HB kit and you'll probably find them in .015" area at least and probably wider.

gary

i don't know the size of the weld beads, but they sure look as large as AMK's MiG-31 panel lines. (the real aircraft panel lines are way thinner than the weld lines.)

i've look at my kit, and, as it seems AMK decided to put engraved panel lines also where there should be weld lines, i have planned to insert some 0,3mm(0,01") platic rod (it fits) into those area. (and work them a little, to create the welding effect) i did a test, and it was looking OK (in regards to surrounding panel lines, it was a match...)

if i have more welding lines to add, i have planned to use either Archer's fine transfers, or create my own (painting thin gray lines on decal film shouldn't be that hard)

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5 hours ago, Berkut said:

Sigh.

 

In what way am i biased, exactly? Because i worked on the AMK kit? Well, that is news. Looking forward to your next statement that the Earth is round and water is wet.

 

Just because i worked on the AMK project in no way disproves the things i pointed out in just that frontal view. Those are mistakes in the HB kit unless you are able to prove otherwise. And you are clearly not able to do that. And i have listed AMK's mistakes previously (several times) and i am not trying to kill the conversation and try to "hide" anything about the AMK kit. That is just pure nonsense. I have pointed out errors with AMK kit, in public, that no one else previously pointed out. That is literally the opposite of "hiding" anything. I welcome critique of the AMK kit and i have in fact been keeping a list of the bugs i am aware of. I have for example learned about the small engine bumps that AMK missed because Gabor pointed it out.

 

Your post is just noise. It contains no argument, it doesnt provide any new information to anyone. Gabor, Mofo, Janman etc, all of their posts contain information or some sort of critique. You on the other hand, as usual, is just trying to kill the conversation. At best you are acting like a heckler, you dont provide any arguments or provide any information.

 

As to the last point, MiG-31 is not able to fly at Mach 3 for your information. Welded panellines or not. You trying to pass it off them being as some sort of radically important details is just silly. They are just a manufacturing solution to a problem, like anything else. Again, they are nice details in HB kit but that is pretty much it. Using your logic, i could claim MiG-31 couldnt fly at all just because HB kit doesnt have actuator on the wings, let alone Mach 3...

 

 

Yeah, they should be angled with the wing and be 90 degrees vs the wing, not vs the ground. Should be possible to fix i think, but none the less, it is a bug.

 

 

Right back at you "hooligan friend". 

 

1) You worked/consulted for AMK. It will be nice to say that as a disclaimer before you point out the errors on the competition. Why? because we are comparing kits in this topic and not everyone reading this topic has seen every single post of yours. If you dont state it then you are behaving like a salesman more than a modeler who is trying to help others.

 

2) I do remember you pointing out some omissions of AMK in some other topic but never like a list which you presented here for HB one. Plus your tone is much more accommodating for those errors. Maybe rightly so, but that is for others to decide once you share the errors people can make up their minds. If you have done a list for AMK, I haven't seen it, please do share it if you have couple seconds or a link...

 

3) I have no problems whatsoever people pointing out errors like you did with pictures etc. That is perfect. (I hate comments like "it looks wrong" though without any support). However, in this topic people are trying to decide which one to buy. And, when you state the problems of one kit and just say "other one has errors that no one said anything yet and they are tiny anyway" that is a very fishy move especially since you were part of AMK team at some point. 

 

4) Again you are belittling HB's attention to a detail that was omitted by AMK. It is significant for me and I bet some others would care about it too. It is this tone of yours that bothers me. Some of the mistakes you pointed out are silly for me, maybe, It is up to each person???. Welding detail is significant because in every single book, in every single documentary about Mig-25/31 you will read/hear about how panels are welded to cope with the speeds above/approaching MACH 3, respectively. That is a significant character of these planes. When I talk about this model to a friend I would point and mention this, no joke.. I would talk about since they had to weld they had to use nickel, which made the planes heavier etc.. 

 

5) I am well aware about the top speeds of these planes, thanks. 

 

6) I do not have input on these models per se because I do not have them. I think this is a healthier attitude. If I had them, I would already had an opinion about which one is better. At this stage I am torn and your input means very little due to your tone and bias. 

 

 

@ya-gabor if you have both kits I would love to see a few pictures of the main parts side by side.. if you can!!! thanks. 

 

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maybe you should read again, from the very begining the thread i've started, more than 3 years ago, about AMK's MiG-31. LINK and maybe you'll realize soon enough how silly are your "accusations" on berkut's being some sort of wheeler dealer for AMK because he helped them graciously!  ...and if you keep reading the thread, you might find what you search for... and do the listing by yourself! (if that matters that much for you)

 

for me, it's already done. i'm an AMK fan, because i like the way they have acted through that very project. my HB appreciation is way lower... till i see the HB MiG-31 being build, and compared to the AMK one... i know one thing for sure: the AMK has the right overall shapes, and the engineering of the kit is one of the best i've seen. dry fit is flawless.etc. so, maybe a better choice for a less trickier build?

 

if, in the end, what you wanted to read, is that both kits equals, because each can chose by himself what matters for him freely... so, be it!   both kits equals!...so, if both kits equals, and nothing in one kit makes you wish to choose it over the other, search for other factors? price, availability, appreciation of the brand...

 

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Gabor, I appreciate your expertise on several Soviet aircraft. You have an amazing amount of knowledge and first-hand experience on them, so I was naturally very eager to hear from an expert. Okay, I heard it now. No reason to be offended, everyone has a right to think what they want.

 

All this was purely from a modeler's point of view. I mean we have a kit that was "co-designed" by fellow modelers and supposed to be the best kit ever made of the mighty MiG-31. Then we have another offering from a company who's arguably known from slobby or lazy research and mishaped canopies. Suddenly the latter is more accurate! I don't remember when that has happened before so this is the only reason I was very keen to hear why. But one can not overrule the feeling factor either, we are people after all.

 

Now, let's build some plastic kits!

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12 hours ago, ChesshireCat said:

Are you kidding me??? The weld beads look like they're between 6mm and 8mm. That calculates out to .006" in 1/48th scale, or one and one half times as wide as a human hair! If they were 12mm wide, your still looking at about .008". Now go and measure the HB kit and you'll probably find them in .015" area at least and probably wider.

gary


Since panel lines, rivets and small detail like that seldom is exactly to scale on model kits anyway I think recreating weld lines by using stretched sprue that is worked on by a knife and liberal application of liquid cement (like Tamiya Extra Thin) would work just fine. Stretched sprue comes in all sizes from thinner than human hair and up, and scale-thin sprue in this case would probably just disappear into the panel lines on the AMK kit.
I built the AMK kit before I knew about the weld lines. I am no subject expert (obviously) and I have not built the HB kit, but FWIW the AMK kit is a pleasant build experience, so from that perspective I strongly recommend it.

/E

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3 hours ago, agelos2005 said:

Is there any in progress build of the hobbyboss?

i really cannot find any! When I search it is always AMK?

 

Exactly. And exactly why we are discussing this. I would also like to see a WIP build of the HB kit. As I haven't seen one I've been trying to figure out kit's pros and cons here. 

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11 hours ago, ChernayaAkula said:

 

Which in turn doesn't bode well for the overall accuracy of the fuselage shape in that area. Assuming, of course, the landing gear doors are engineered to fit nicely when assembling them closed (for an in-flight build).

 

The area overall looks quite weird. The doors are mostly at wrong angle (they should drop down more) and that creates wrongly dimensioned piston that holds them. Should be possible to correct the angle with some chopping of the piston, but i think the bottom half of the doors is still too short. And since they are too short, they had to cover the lost space somehow which is why the airbrakes looks twisted inboard on the outboard sides. The airbrakes should face the airstream directly, not at an angle.

 

8 hours ago, mingwin said:

i don't know the size of the weld beads, but they sure look as large as AMK's MiG-31 panel lines. (the real aircraft panel lines are way thinner than the weld lines.)

i've look at my kit, and, as it seems AMK decided to put engraved panel lines also where there should be weld lines, i have planned to insert some 0,3mm(0,01") platic rod (it fits) into those area. (and work them a little, to create the welding effect) i did a test, and it was looking OK (in regards to surrounding panel lines, it was a match...)

if i have more welding lines to add, i have planned to use either Archer's fine transfers, or create my own (painting thin gray lines on decal film shouldn't be that hard)

 

Hmm, inserting plastic is an interesting idea. Maybe insert pieces of plastic sheet, the go over with an x-acto blade to trim to a certain height? The blade can have something taped to it to give a certain height above the surface so that the plastic sheet sticking out is trimmed to an even height. But i dunno, the panellines are so thin i am not sure there is actually enough space to fit any plastic sheet or get it to grip well. Probably better off to pick up some tips from the armor guys as to how they make theirs (much larger) weld lines or use stretched sprue as suggested above by Erik. If you do anything re the weld lines, please document it, would be interesting to see. :)

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12 hours ago, erik_g said:


Since panel lines, rivets and small detail like that seldom is exactly to scale on model kits anyway I think recreating weld lines by using stretched sprue that is worked on by a knife and liberal application of liquid cement (like Tamiya Extra Thin) would work just fine. Stretched sprue comes in all sizes from thinner than human hair and up, and scale-thin sprue in this case would probably just disappear into the panel lines on the AMK kit.
I built the AMK kit before I knew about the weld lines. I am no subject expert (obviously) and I have not built the HB kit, but FWIW the AMK kit is a pleasant build experience, so from that perspective I strongly recommend it.

/E

I must confess that I don't have the kit in my hands, but expected it to arrive today. It didn't, so maybe tomorrow. I've thought about the weld lines as well, and I think anything under .010" in width would work. The real issue is getting something sort of flexable with a reasonable puddle path (that circular pattern you see in a weld). This would be a great thing for somebody like Eduard todo in photo etch.

 

I've been a big proponent in pushing AMK (forget the Trumpeter / Hobby Boss bunch) into doing an F100d. It's time for something better than the forty plus year old Monogram kit to be replaced. Yet I'd also like to see AMK do some other airframes. A good Vigilante would be most welcome. Personally I think a B45 would be welcomed (especially an RB45). I thought we'd never see a good MIG21 in 1/48th till Eduard showed up. Even a correct F105D or F111 would make folks smile a lot. Not that the others are so bad, but still not correct. 

gary

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still on the welding thing (i know it's a bit of hijacking the thread...but since we've so well started) ...i think i'll go with UMM 0.2mm lead wire! i have done a test, and it sits/snuggle nicely in the cavity, and what's exceeding can be work  easily. 

 

i don't know why i'm reluctant to work with heated sprues... it certainly have something to do with the fact that when i was 12, i did an aircraft carrier, and the instruction says that gazzillions of antennas around the deck should be done with heated/stretched sprues. and at a moment, i badly burned inside 3 of my fingers with melted sprue...that melted with my skin. badly burn to the 3rd degree...on 0,000001% of my body!!! (it was really to the 3rd degree, but on a 1/4 square inches surface.) it took me 2 months before i could use my hand, luckily it wasn't the hand i write with.  i never ever melted sprues again after that fail. happily, it doesn't prevent me to join the canadian forces,  and throw grenades, shoot carl gustav... i guess i was feeling it was safer!:rolleyes:

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59 minutes ago, mingwin said:

still on the welding thing (i know it's a bit of hijacking the thread...but since we've so well started) ...i think i'll go with UMM 0.2mm lead wire! i have done a test, and it sits/snuggle nicely in the cavity, and what's exceeding can be work  easily. 

 

i don't know why i'm reluctant to work with heated sprues... it certainly have something to do with the fact that when i was 12, i did an aircraft carrier, and the instruction says that gazzillions of antennas around the deck should be done with heated/stretched sprues. and at a moment, i badly burned inside 3 of my fingers with melted sprue...that melted with my skin. badly burn to the 3rd degree...on 0,000001% of my body!!! (it was really to the 3rd degree, but on a 1/4 square inches surface.) it took me 2 months before i could use my hand, luckily it wasn't the hand i write with.  i never ever melted sprues again after that fail. happily, it doesn't prevent me to join the canadian forces,  and throw grenades, shoot carl gustav... i guess i was feeling it was safer!:rolleyes:

fly fishing shops sell .010" and .015" diameter lead wire (and non lead as well). usually about $3.00 for a 25 foot spool.

gary

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Just now, ChesshireCat said:

fly fishing shops sell .010" and .015" diameter lead wire (and non lead as well). usually about $3.00 for a 25 foot spool.

gary

excellent! i'll go take a look in the following days. (and buy some, for sure!)thanks for the tip.

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