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Is there any evidence that Air America operated UH-1C model Huey's?  All the pictures I find on line are B and D model Huey's.

 

Reason for asking: I won an old Monogram Huey Hog kit in a raffle yesterday and I'm just not feeling inspired to go in the direction of a green Huey.  

 

From the photographs on line it appears that the Huey's are painted silver (not bare metal).  Is this correct?  Is there an easy match for the blue (close is good enough)?

 

Thanks for the input...

 

C2j

Edited by Cubs2jets
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Gino,

 

Thanks for the reply.  

 

I had examined these pictures in my personal search.  Let me say that I know that I know far less than many about Huey's.  That said, I've learned about pitot tube position (nose vs cabin roof) rotor blades (narrow vs wide chord "540" blades, wide chord vs. narrow "elevators" and the less defining engine air intake (filter vs non-filter) as identifiers between B model and C model Huey's...  These points lead me to believe these three pictures would be considered B model Huey's.

 

I am always open to being schooled on the finer points of things Huey.

 

C2j

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C2j,

  Gino is correct they are civil 204Bs.  The 204B has a longer tailboom than the UH-1B and a luggage compartment on the right side near the fuselage.  The long tailboom was necessary to accommodate the 48ft 205 main rotor.  The UH-1B has a 44ft main rotor.  Both rotors have a 21 inch chord compared to the 27 inches of the 540 rotor on the UH-1C.  Another difference is that the main rotorhead has upward facing blade counterweights in the UH-1B and the 48 ft main rotor of the 204B did not.  Here is the rotorhaed from a UH-1B from Army Aviation Museum archives:Image may contain: sky and outdoor

 

Here is UH-1B 64-14057 from Terry Love.  It shows the features of a standard UH-1B very well.

Image may contain: outdoor

 

Here is Bell 204B C-FRSR Resource taken at Langley, BC September 2007 by John Olafson.  Note the luggage door near the root of the tail, long tailboom and no blade counterweights:

 

Image may contain: sky and outdoor

 

Air America never flew UH-1Cs since the UH-1C was developed as an interim gunship and Air America was supposed to appear to be a civilian outfit.  In any event, the Huey h

Hog kit is a chimera of B and C parts.  The tail and sync elevators are the narrow chord UH-1B type, but the 540 rotor and roof pitot are the UH-1C type.  So technically you can't build anything accurately form the box, but it is easiest to get a UH-1B from the kit using a cut down rotor from a UH-1D/H kit.  The UH-1D/H used a 48ft main rotor blade with a 21 inch chord just like the 204B.  I hope some of this info is helpful.  Let us know if we can answer anything else.

    Ray

 

 

Edited by rotorwash
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Oooohhhhh kaaaayyyyy,  And here I was thinking the CIA "borrowed" equipment...   I guess they could afford new with their black budgets.  LOL !!  I guess I'm never too old to be edjumakated.

 

So, most of you guys are light years ahead of me with your knowledge and building skills.  I'm OK with "close enough" and a paint job for this free kit.  If I were to find a "donor" ESCI UH-1D/H is it feasible / necessary to graft the tailboom onto the Monogram kit along with the main rotor? 

 

Alternately, under what designation might I find pictures of "civilianized" surplused UH-1C's (if there ever was such a thing)?  I'm assuming fire fighting / medium lift utility work?

 

Thanks for steering me in a righter direction.

 

C2j

 

 

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C2J,

  While the 204B does have a long tailboom, it is not quite the same shape as the D/H tailboom.  However, it could probably be sanded to the right shape.  The Italeri 1/48 UH-1D/H or UH-1N kits have the luggage compartment door as an option for the tailboom already so it might be a better starting point.  

   Personally, if you are looking for colorful subjects, I say look no further than the UH-1B.

  One of my personal favorite schemes is the Antarctic scheme used in Operation Deep Freeze by the US Army.

Image may contain: airplane, sky, outdoor and nature

 

You can get decals for a couple of different Antarctic schemes here from Max Decals: http://www.maxdecals.com/webpages/max4822.html

 

Or how about this scheme flown by the RAN (Royal Australian Navy).  Photo is form Bell Helicopter.

 

Image may contain: sky, airplane and outdoor

 

You can get decals for this scheme from Hawkeye models: https://www.amazon.com/Hawkeye-Models-HS-723-Decals-RAN-03/dp/B01MS8C3PU

 

 

There are plenty more in cool colors, but these are two I know you can the decals for.

    Ray

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 4/30/2017 at 9:59 AM, HeavyArty said:

Air America civilian Bell 204s.

15b75b77fefc8749d749ae79db529688.jpg

9d041996a75f3bbb864cd3b4e8abb853.jpg

e4ee66169faf51b785cea63beae5ad34.jpg

 

 

The "tri-pod" framework above the LHS pilot door is the forward attachment for the HF antenna, correct?  Anybody know where the FORWARD end of the antenna entered the fuselage?  Anybody know where the AFT end of the Antenna terminated (I'm guessing the outboard end of the sync elevator)?

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  • 8 months later...
  • 3 weeks later...
On 06/02/2018 at 2:10 AM, Cubs2jets said:

Anybody got information about the HF antenna?

 

C2j

 

Would also be interested to know more about this antenna. Here's a photo Ray posted recently on Facebook:

 

28423032_10156062260274098_5058928856127

 

 

Pretty unusual antenna configuration overall, I assume these must have been a special order?

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RGS,

 

Not UH-1H's but Bell 205A's  LOL!

 

I have spent some time trying to find additional information on the HF antenna on the Bell 204B's with little success.  The forward frame is clear enough, it's just where does the antenna wire go?  If you look carefully at the picture above, you can see a line that I think is the antenna wire from the mast and just above the rotor of the Bell in the background.  It continues to be visible about midway up the fin of the Bell in the background but disappears as you continue aft from there.  I have about come to the conclusion that it attaches to the port outboard end of the sync elevator on both the 204B"s and 205A"s.

 

I'm looking at a box on my bench that has parts from three kits in it to get the Monogram Huey Hog morphed into a 204B.  Time will tell.

 

C2j

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I doubt very seriously that wire is attached to the synch elevator. Movement of the elevator would change tension on the wire and surely break it. Instead I believe it passes over the elevator and connects to the tail boom were the military U shaped antennas would be fixed.

 

Chris M

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9 hours ago, Cubs2jets said:

Not UH-1H's but Bell 205A's  LOL!

 

Not 205As, check the tail rotor. Sliding door windows, tail boom and nose details also eliminate 205A, she's either a D or an H-model. My initial thoughts were D, as I've not seen an H with nose mounted FM antennas before, but then other features point towards H, plus photo comes from Ray, and he says H. As I say, it's an unusual setup (EDIT: the 'dog bowl' on the belly wasn't standard on U.S. Army aircraft either AFAIK, but was fitted to RAAF birds of the period).

 

Sid Nanson thinks he's linked the c/n to the aircraft in the image below (his comments follow).

 

28378037_10156421733464739_6653158664352

 

"That's the c/n then Ray. Picture probably taken 1967, was registered XW-PFH and was in service out of Udorn by October 1967. Abandoned in Saigon 1975. Documentation gives it as a UH-1D (205D)." - Sid Nanson

 

Checking (myself) against a list of Bell serials, 3210 is absent, however it would put her in the D category; that is to say she originally left the factory as a D-model, engine possibly upgraded since.

 

Another comment earlier in the thread was also interesting:

 

"We operated quite far from our bases, needed HF antennae to commo our whereabouts. Especially in Laos upcountry, had to call back to Udorn or LS20A." - Michael Banek

 

Hope this info isn't considered too off-topic, just thought it was interesting. Be sure to view Ray's original at full resolution BTW, not just as embedded above. Do you happen to have any high res photos of the frame itself?

 

Robert

 

Edited by RGS
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Well, I should learn that if it involves the CIA, I should keep my mouth shut as I'll probably get it wrong (as proven at the beginning of this thread).

 

This link https://www.utdallas.edu/library/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/aircraft/205.pdf has concise informathion on Air America usage of Bell 205 / UH-1D/H airframes and specific information on XW-PFH.

 

If you come up with info on the HF antenna, please post.

 

C2j

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15 hours ago, Chief Snake said:

I doubt very seriously that wire is attached to the synch elevator. Movement of the elevator would change tension on the wire and surely break it. Instead I believe it passes over the elevator and connects to the tail boom were the military U shaped antennas would be fixed.

 

Chris M

Chris,

 

I accepted your information, then I downloaded the picture of the two 205D's on the Bell ramp.  For the first time, I think I can see the entire run of the HF antenna wire and it appears to attach to a tab in the tip of the port sync elevator.  I'd appreciate your input on this.  I'm still looking for information regarding the 204B and antenna.  I think I'm seeing a similar tab on the 204B sync elevator, but the wire seems to be missing in most photos.

 

C2j

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On 2/28/2018 at 9:01 AM, Cubs2jets said:

Chris,

 

I accepted your information, then I downloaded the picture of the two 205D's on the Bell ramp.  For the first time, I think I can see the entire run of the HF antenna wire and it appears to attach to a tab in the tip of the port sync elevator.  I'd appreciate your input on this.  I'm still looking for information regarding the 204B and antenna.  I think I'm seeing a similar tab on the 204B sync elevator, but the wire seems to be missing in most photos.

 

C2j

Here is a close crop of the original image.  It makes no sense that the antenna would attach to the sync elevator.  I can't tell from the photo, but I wonder if it is going to the tail skid.  That would make way more sense to me.  And they are definitely H models as Robert mentioned and as indicated by the roof pitots.  The only D models I know of that came off the line with roof pitots were the last few 66 serial D's and it is unclear to me if even these, while listed as D's, might not have had L13 engines making them H models.  It is entirely possible Bell still listed these as D's while they had L13 engines and roof pitots as well.

     Ray

Jay Miller Bell Prints975 cropped.jpg

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On 2/28/2018 at 10:01 AM, Cubs2jets said:

Chris,

 

I accepted your information, then I downloaded the picture of the two 205D's on the Bell ramp.  For the first time, I think I can see the entire run of the HF antenna wire and it appears to attach to a tab in the tip of the port sync elevator.  I'd appreciate your input on this.  I'm still looking for information regarding the 204B and antenna.  I think I'm seeing a similar tab on the 204B sync elevator, but the wire seems to be missing in most photos.

 

C2j

It would be foolish to put a tensioned wire on a moving part. The movement of the elevator would harm the wire and likely the wire could impede the movement of the elevator. Look again at your photo and follow the wire as it passes over the elevator near the tail boom. Follow it along that line and you can see it in the dark band of paint and that line goes precisely to the area where the U shaped antennas ( VHF/Omni) would be.  I'm a bit skeptical that it would terminate on the tail skid,  continue on the angle of the line and it passes below the tail boom before it could reach the skid. As for a tab or something at the end of the elevator, it's clearly there but why is a great question. I have never seen that before.

 

Chris M

Edited by Chief Snake
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1 hour ago, Chief Snake said:

It would be foolish to put a tensioned wire on a moving part. The movement of the elevator would harm the wire and likely the wire could impede the movement of the elevator. Look again at your photo and follow the wire as it passes over the elevator near the tail boom. Follow it along that line and you can see it in the dark band of paint and that line goes precisely to the area where the U shaped antennas ( VHF/Omni) would be.  I'm a bit skeptical that it would terminate on the tail skid,  continue on the angle of the line and it passes below the tail boom before it could reach the skid. As for a tab or something at the end of the elevator, it's clearly there but why is a great question. I have never seen that before.

 

Chris M

You may very well be right, Chris, but certainly the ARC 102 antenna attached to the tail skid so I think it is at least a possibility this one did as well.  I can't believe there isn't one decent photo of the Air America antenna that I can find.  Photo is from the USAAM archives.

   Ray

UH-1596_1280x854 cropped.jpg

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I am NOT arguing.  We are discussing and I am enjoying you guys knowledgeable input!

 

AA Bell 204B with ARC-102 HF antenna on tailboom.  Aft termination point is 1/2 to 2/3 out the tail skid.

 

obBezyI.jpg

 

The Bell 205 photo in discussion from above.  This is the first image that I have seen in which you can see the entire antenna run (above the dreaded red line).

 

bWibqMR.jpg

 

If the antenna was attached 1/2 to 2/3 out the tail skid, it should follow the yellow line.  I see three possible issues with this a) it MIGHT put the antenna into the plane of the tailrotor disk (depending on how far out the forward mast moves the wire)  b) if the forward mast is close to or in line with the widest point of the fuselage, the antenna MIGHT contact the tailboom before it gets to the attach point on the tail skid. and 3) I just dont see the antenna continuing or an attach point on the tail skid in the image (plus the fact that you can clearly see that the antenna does NOT follow the yellow line).

 

DEoXPCH.jpg

 

If the antenna attaches to the (apparent) tab on the tip of the sync elevator, it follows the green line exactly (with a slight sag from slack).  Chris M, to your point about movement of the sync elevator causing harm to the antenna wire (stretching), look at where on the sync elevator the tab is placed.  It is at the main spar / center of rotation of the sync elevator.  There would be little or no movement of the attach point with rotation of the sync elevator, do you agree?

 

7hUhdy5.jpg

 

I really appreciate you guy input and participation in this discussion.  I think we can agree this antenna is a head scratcher.  I'm sure there are pictures and or information somewhere.  With our apparent luck, it is in the archives at Langley!

 

I do begin to believe that in many of the 204B pictures the antenna wire is removed, missing, NOT present.

Edited by Cubs2jets
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Though I originally didn't think it to be the case, I suspect that the wire may well attach to the elevator. That 'tab' is placed right in line with the wire (even the angle matches) and from the photos I have, is only present on the left hand side - quite a coincidence. It's also appears to be located at the axis of the elevator, meaning movement would be minimal.

 

EDIT: Agree with much of what @Cubs2jets says above. Post came in as I was writing.

 

 

 

Edited by RGS
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I had not thought of the tab being able to remain "stationary" as the elevator moved. I have to agree that this could very well be the case. What ever impact the movement of the elevator had on the wire must be minimal or it would not have been done. Pictures of the opposite side of these aircraft do not exhibit any kind "tab" on the elevator. Must have been a one side application only. Since the wire seems to be missing on other pictured aircraft kind of makes me think the application may have been temporary or it didn't function well enough to be retained. The single wire may have been subject to tension created by movement through the air. If it broke because of this it could account for them being removed and the antenna switched to the tail boom where it was supported by the posts. The forerunner of the ARC-102? Necessity is the mother of invention.

 

Chris M

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2 hours ago, Chief Snake said:

I had not thought of the tab being able to remain "stationary" as the elevator moved. I have to agree that this could very well be the case. What ever impact the movement of the elevator had on the wire must be minimal or it would not have been done. Pictures of the opposite side of these aircraft do not exhibit any kind "tab" on the elevator. Must have been a one side application only. Since the wire seems to be missing on other pictured aircraft kind of makes me think the application may have been temporary or it didn't function well enough to be retained. The single wire may have been subject to tension created by movement through the air. If it broke because of this it could account for them being removed and the antenna switched to the tail boom where it was supported by the posts. The forerunner of the ARC-102? Necessity is the mother of invention.

 

Chris M

I can see the same tab on the left side of the 204B Air America birds as well, Chris.  It just seems like a dumb place for an antenna.  I don't think it's a forerunner of the ARC 102 since this aircraft was purchased form Bell in September of 1967 and the ARC 102 was on UH-1Ds as early as 1965.  I would REALLY like to know more about this setup.  I had no idea this photo was going to spark so much interest.

    Ray

You can see the tab here on the left side of the sync elevator

 

Image result for Air America huey

 

And no tab here on the right side.

Related image

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It's an odd one for sure!

 

In terms of hard to find Huey antenna info, I'd say it's right up there with the rectangular-shaped one used in Antarctica.

 

USNAM%20UH-1031.jpg

 

OFF TOPIC: Other equipment which is irritatingly hard to track down is that of EH-1H/X, JUH-1H SOTAS and Left Bank (Vietnam). As is the case with our Air America antenna, there are a decent number of low/medium-res shots around (depending on the model; lots of SOTAS, virtually none for EH-1X), but very few which show good close-up detail. Plus, and particularly annoying for me personally, is the distinct lack of cockpit and cabin images.

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