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2 minutes ago, Robert Porter said:

Agreed entirely, and my point is Jim agree's with you as well. If you look now a very recent post by Jim very clearly and categorically calls that behavior out and explains why the post in question was deleted. It also states that future such posts will be immediately removed. He even acknowledges that his initial defense of the post was ill informed and indefensible in hindsight. If you ask me he has done all anyone could be expected to, he did not create the post and once he fully understood the nature of it he removed it. 

 

That is fair. However, if the picture on his blog is of somebody else's work, he should remove it. Perhaps replace it with one of the 90s box-side pictures he does not like?

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Just now, RKic said:

 

 

If I started going on about people I do not like, and linked a picture of you, would you not presuppose that I am speaking about you (for the record - I do not dislike you, as I do not know you)? 

Yes I would, but that is not what Jim did. He did not post a picture of you, nor did your name get mentioned, that I could find, in his post. And on the record I certainly do not dislike you, I don't yet know you. But I hope to, especially as you appear to be a talented builder. In Jim's concluding remarks on that post he points out that while he personally finds certain styles boring etc, it is a hobby and we are of course all entitled to our individual interpretations of our subjects. 

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1 minute ago, RKic said:

 

That is fair. However, if the picture on his blog is of somebody else's work, he should remove it. Perhaps replace it with one of the 90s box-side pictures he does not like?

I think that is fair, however it is a common practice, including here in this forum, to post mostly unattributed, example photo's from public posts. Sort of the nature of the internet I suppose. And to be totally honest look at the terms of use for this site, and most others, the underlying hosting company in order to indemnify themselves basically points out that anything you post here is public domain. Personally I attempt to use manufacturer pictures when I can as that is less likely to be mistaken as this was. I truly do not believe Jim was personally attacking anyone in that post, he was discussing styles and the use of reference pics and reality modeling. 

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8 minutes ago, Robert Porter said:

Agreed entirely, and my point is Jim agree's with you as well. If you look now a very recent post by Jim very clearly and categorically calls that behavior out and explains why the post in question was deleted. It also states that future such posts will be immediately removed. He even acknowledges that his initial defense of the post was ill informed and indefensible in hindsight. If you ask me he has done all anyone could be expected to, he did not create the post and once he fully understood the nature of it he removed it. 

But not several others that came before it. Jim made his little group for one reason only: An attempt to place himself and his buddies on a pedestal from which they could lob their vitriol to anyone. Their quest for perfection is noble to a point, but in a classic case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it does more harm than good. It goes beyond pointing out flaws and suggesting improvements, but oftentimes calls into question the character or mentality of those responsible for kit production or the specific build in question.

 

Is he free to his opinion? Absolutely. He's established his little island kingdom so that he and doog can be worshipped (case in point: You're here defending him while he watches safely from the shadows). While is is free to his own opinion, he is likewise NOT free from the consequence of voicing that opinion, which amongst other things helped generate record increases in sales and followers for Kitty Hawk models whilst also helping prove that there is an unspoken line that shouldn't be crossed. The amount of discord and hate that he and Doog have generated is on a level I don't think I've ever witnessed in this hobby before. Hardly a fitting disposition for those who would style themselves as ambassadors of the hobby (which would help explain why said-publication kicked him to the curve)

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13 minutes ago, Robert Porter said:

Agreed entirely, and my point is Jim agree's with you as well. If you look now a very recent post by Jim very clearly and categorically calls that behavior out and explains why the post in question was deleted. It also states that future such posts will be immediately removed. He even acknowledges that his initial defense of the post was ill informed and indefensible in hindsight.

Never did I see any apologies. And the man called me a$$hole... So he removed the post after the backlash, still doesn't make it right. It is in the groups "Rule 5" that they can critique any build they deem worthy... 

 

Anyway, 

 

I left the site as I found it distasteful..

 

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6 minutes ago, Robert Porter said:

Yespecially as you appear to be a talented builder. 

 

 

Now I know you're delusional :p :) 

 

 

Sorry, I'm trying to lighten the mood a bit. 

 

I think you guys should be commended for trying to make right, but I did want to make you aware that some of the things y'all say (on the FB group, but maybe moreso in personal blogs - which I get it - they're personal) can be extremely hurtful. 

 

My own work has never been reviewed by your group, but a close friend of mine posted a model recently that he was very proud of. It was his first build, that in his opinion came out neat and tidy. His work was critiqued by the FB group. It was done in a generally neutral way, but some of the commentary was dismissive, and the many likes for the dismissive comments really took the wind out of his sails. I understand the whole thinking about publicly presented work being open to scrutiny and critique. But it sucked to see a guy who was so proud of his work that he finally felt comfortable sharing it, getting knocked down a few pegs. 

 

I don't know, there is no easy answer. Just remember that there are people who built those imperfect models, and they felt good enough about them to post them on a public forum. They probably didn't think their photos would be spirited away to a facebook page where hotshot modelers, who are much more skilled than them (and more skilled than guys like me as well), go over the shortcomings of their work. Just keep it in mind, and maybe ask before you critique? 

 

Again, no easy answer. Critique is good - not everything is made equal, and critique can make one grow. I know, I know. 

 

What is the middle path here? 

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Just now, Winnie said:

Never did I see any apologies. And the man called me a$$hole... So he removed the post after the backlash, still doesn't make it right. It is in the groups "Rule 5" that they can critique any build they deem worthy... 

 

Anyway, 

 

I left the site as I found it distasteful..

 

I understand please accept my own apology. To Jim's credit he does feel badly about the whole episode and has publicly taken a "Mea Culpa" stance on it. It was not backlash but inappropriate use of the group that had the post deleted. And those that participated have been warned never to repeat it. 

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My problem is this. Someone pointed out to Jim that what was going on in his page was wrong and instantly got the "So what, If you don't like it leave. ". So for you to say the Jim feels the same way, so totally disingenuous to my ears. If he felt as strongly about the way that thread was going this would hardly have been the response. here's the context of what I speak of. Jim's a twat, plane and simple.

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1 minute ago, RKic said:

 

 

Now I know you're delusional :p :) 

 

 

Sorry, I'm trying to lighten the mood a bit. 

 

I think you guys should be commended for trying to make right, but I did want to make you aware that some of the things y'all say (on the FB group, but maybe moreso in personal blogs - which I get it - they're personal) can be extremely hurtful. 

 

My own work has never been reviewed by your group, but a close friend of mine posted a model recently that he was very proud of. It was his first build, that in his opinion came out neat and tidy. His work was critiqued by the FB group. It was done in a generally neutral way, but some of the commentary was dismissive, and the many likes for the dismissive comments really took the wind out of his sails. I understand the whole thinking about publicly presented work being open to scrutiny and critique. But it sucked to see a guy who was so proud of his work that he finally felt comfortable sharing it, getting knocked down a few pegs. 

 

I don't know, there is no easy answer. Just remember that there are people who built those imperfect models, and they felt good enough about them to post them on a public forum. They probably didn't think their photos would be spirited away to a facebook page where hotshot modelers, who are much more skilled than them (and more skilled than guys like me as well), go over the shortcomings of their work. Just keep it in mind, and maybe ask before you critique? 

 

Again, no easy answer. Critique is good - not everything is made equal, and critique can make one grow. I know, I know. 

 

What is the middle path here? 

You post some excellent points and it is something the group struggles with itself, how far is to far etc. There is a video that all new members are encouraged to watch and it clearly warns folks if you have a thin skin it is probably not a good group for you. I feel for your friend, I know how crtique can smart but it also helps. I personally chose to ignore the comments that are dismissive. But I love those that offer suggestions or point out issues I can learn from.

 

As to pictures being spirited away, while in general I agree, you can certainly find examples of the exact same behavior here and on almost any forum on the internet. Some of them are way worse because they have no limiter. SMCG may not react as quickly as we would all like but they do take down posts that are abusive and I have seen the admins step into threads that had gotten needlessly critical and clean them up. But no one and no forum or group is perfect. 

 

I don't honestly have an answer, I think it is important that we all take a breath and try to keep our perspective. Right or wrong Jim has his opinion and we all have our own which may or may not agree with each other or Jim, but if it is okay to knock him and his opinion then it means we are all fair game and I hate to see things devolve into a personality cult or an internet pi$$ing match. Heck I just have fun building models!

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3 minutes ago, marine4 ever said:

My problem is this. Someone pointed out to Jim that what was going on in his page was wrong and instantly got the "So what, If you don't like it leave. ". So for you to say the Jim feels the same way, so totally disingenuous to my ears. If he felt as strongly about the way that thread was going this would hardly have been the response. here's the context of what I speak of. Jim's a twat, plane and simple.

As I mentioned, he specifically stated that he jumped the gun out of frustration and once he took the time and caught up with what was actually happening he corrected it. He is certainly human but no more or less a twat than some of the remarks made in this thread. That is what I have been trying to address here, that dumping on Jim here is exactly the same behavior you and others criticize him for there. If it is not okay for him to do it how does that make it right to do the same thing here? You may not like the man, but he has as much a right to his opinion as you and I have to ours. I would rather rise above the knee jerk reactions I see here and I do the same when I am on that group. If I think someone is getting personal or non productive I PM an admin. Just saying we cannot engage in the exact behavior we criticize someone else for. That is truly disingenuous.

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17 minutes ago, Robert Porter said:

I would rather rise above the knee jerk reactions I see here

No knee jerk reaction at all. I've watched him rip into people who don't agree with him or question his motives. I've seen people who are respectful and polite get ripped apart by that ego maniac. You say he's sorry and gave a full mea culpa. Where did he give it? in SMCG? everyone he's offended isn't in that group, he kicked them all out. I don't see him reaching out to the party(a friend of mine) who questioned the worthiness of posting and critiquing a build not in his page, who he then called and A$$hole and told to get out! I don't believe he's sorry. I believe he doesn't like the blow back he's getting and is trying to get in front of it before it gets out of hand. 

 

Semper Fi

Dan

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Robert, if Jim is actually remorseful for what he said, maybe he should come on here and say so. It would extent an olive branch and soothe a lot of frayed nerves. 

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2 minutes ago, RKic said:

Robert, if Jim is actually remorseful for what he said, maybe he should come on here and say so. It would extent an olive branch and soothe a lot of frayed nerves. 

His ego won't let him. Much easier to have one of his fanboys defend him. 

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Jim D is a pompous POS, and here's why. I was part of the SMCG on FB for a while. Commented now and then, learned a thing or two here and there. Then one day, POS bans me just for having sssocistion with other people on Facebook. I didn't break any rules or anything. Another reason he's a pompous POS is that he trolls Kitty Hawk Models FB page with derogatory memes, cause Kitty Hawk isn't good enough for him. And apparently he can do much better. And no Habu, SMGC is definitey not another Z5. Not even close. All you have to do is anger his royal highness and you're out. And god forbid you critique anything that they deem amazing. Case in point, that A-6 that's all opened up that everyone in the world has seen, a bunch of times. 

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8 hours ago, habu2 said:

So is SMCG essentially zone-five v2.0

I'm sorry but that comment was uncalled for.

 

For one, when did Z5 ever ban anyone or critique a model posted on another modeling site?

 

All you are trying to do is start another flame war, I though we were past all of that.

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Well I'm just going to ignore the ad hominem, obviously, beyond saying tread carefully because I am fed up with the slander and attorneys are now involved. 

 

Beyond that, I will apologize for the thread in the OP showing up in SMCG. When I woke up at 6AM yesterday I saw the thread, but I did not click the link here to inspect the work. What I did do was respond to a member complaining about someone else's work being shared without permission.

 

Now here's the deal there. We believe that if you share your work in a public setting it's fair game for us to use as a teachable example. Much like art students study the Mona Lisa, or literary students analyze Shakespeare etc. With that in mind it's the admins feeling that the builds that are shared are of a certain quality; builds that are clearly well done but offer the audience the chance to find flaws and learning opportunities in minutiae. 

 

The build that was shared, in retrospect, did not fit this criteria. After making kids breakfast, packing lunches, dropping them off at school, and dealing with a client yesterday I got the opportunity to review the thread. And it was clear that it was outside the remit of the group and was borderline mocking. So yes, I was incensed that it took place, and that I in part encouraged it. I take responsibility. By responding the way I did it certainly looks like I was condoning it and I take responsibility. 

 

There is blatant mischaracterization about the group here and what it does be perpetuated by people with agendas. People's work isn't slagged as ego service. We blatantly don't allow that. We do allow work to be shared and learned from. And that will continue. 

 

I will tell you that there have been times when I've allowed myself to be petty and have used the platform for revenge by mocking people that have attacked me on their troll pages like "The Scale Modelers Critique Group Critique Group." It's petty, and I should know better, and it doesn't look good for the group, and it will stop. 

 

Now, again, I'm sorry that thread was allowed to continue, and I shouldn't have allowed the pop up threads about this thread to have continued either. Normally, I'd just ignore the personal attacks and not even engage here, but what happened yesterday was regrettable. 

 

I do invite you to levy ant concerns or questions you may have. I'm happy to respond to anyone that can be civil. 

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8 hours ago, dthank said:

His ego won't let him. Much easier to have one of his fanboys defend him. 

Firstly he did reply here. I am not so much defending him, he can do that all by himself, I am defending mischaracterizations and character attacks of an entire group of people that do not deserve it. Many of those members, like myself, are also members here. 

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8 hours ago, marine4 ever said:

No knee jerk reaction at all. I've watched him rip into people who don't agree with him or question his motives. I've seen people who are respectful and polite get ripped apart by that ego maniac. You say he's sorry and gave a full mea culpa. Where did he give it? in SMCG? everyone he's offended isn't in that group, he kicked them all out. I don't see him reaching out to the party(a friend of mine) who questioned the worthiness of posting and critiquing a build not in his page, who he then called and A$$hole and told to get out! I don't believe he's sorry. I believe he doesn't like the blow back he's getting and is trying to get in front of it before it gets out of hand. 

 

Semper Fi

Dan

As it happens he has made it here as well. This is again my point, we are supposed to be adults, yet a lot of what I see on the internet based groups like this and yes, sometime SMCG, is juvenile high school behavior. Considering he is adult enough to come here, where he is clearly being attacked on a very personal level, I would think we should in turn be adult enough to agree to disagree perhaps but cease the personal attacks. As to critiquing a post not on his page. Show me ANY forum where that is not happening. And you don't have to look far to see examples, they exist right here in these forums in the very recent past. So if you are going to play that card please be sure you attack it everywhere you find it otherwise I can't help but wonder if the current attack is purely personal in nature. Which would be very sad.

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So you said "read the rules a$$hole, edit or get out."

 

May I point out that the rules are not available once you sign in. And are you going to do the same the next time someone posts someone else's build in the group and anybody cries fowl. Or will it be "take it down a$$hole" again?

 

Why don't you guys just post your own builds and leave it at that. If guys want to be critiqued, they'll ask for it.

 

You claim to be ridiculed, well perhaps you bring some of it on yourself when you swing the banhammer on anyone associated with anyone you don't like, Or anyone who dares go against you or your #2 Or #3. Or even say anything remotely too jocular that you guys didn't post first. 

 

I'll refrain from saying any more, but I thought I'd respond to what I consider bullying behavior.

 

Regards

Harold Sydness

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8 hours ago, CrazyGlueSniffer said:

Jim D is a pompous POS, and here's why. I was part of the SMCG on FB for a while. Commented now and then, learned a thing or two here and there. Then one day, POS bans me just for having sssocistion with other people on Facebook. I didn't break any rules or anything. Another reason he's a pompous POS is that he trolls Kitty Hawk Models FB page with derogatory memes, cause Kitty Hawk isn't good enough for him. And apparently he can do much better. And no Habu, SMGC is definitey not another Z5. Not even close. All you have to do is anger his royal highness and you're out. And god forbid you critique anything that they deem amazing. Case in point, that A-6 that's all opened up that everyone in the world has seen, a bunch of times. 

Jim did not create a FB group to disparage Kitty Hawk, but Kitty Hawk actually did the reverse. Hence the attorneys being involved. Personally for a kit manufacturer to do something like that smacks of school yard bullying. If you disagree with Jim, fine then address your disagreement constructively and state your opinion. You have your right to an opinion just as much as he or I do. Again my point is making these attacks personal serves no ones interest. If you believe he has personally attacked someone and are upset by it address him directly, doing exactly what you criticize him for certainly is hypocritical in the extreme and serves no constructive end. 

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