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1/48 Kitty Hawk, ESCI, Italeri UH-1H comparison build


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Here's a great ref photo for the rubber baby buggy bumpers, but I still contend that adding them is a lot of effort for nearly zero reward.  They will be a couple of mm at best in 48th scale and you won't see them anyway when you paint a rotorhead all black like the modern ones that carry them.  For the record you will also need ot add the metal "skirt" around the bottom of the rotorhead and this will further narrow the gap between the rotorhead and the dampners.

   Ray

UH-1H%2066-16478%20rotor%207_zpsdtowjzwb

 

As you can see here, the bumpers pretty much take up all the space between the dampners and the rotorhead.

35721654225_99891512a7_z.jpg

Edited by rotorwash
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When I said some modern Hueys don't use the mast bumpers, I thought I would look at my photos and see what i could find.  Turns out virtually no one uses them here in the US now that the Army is out of the Huey business.

 

Huey II's don't use them.  these are from 2012.

DSC_0716_zpsketwbhpr.jpg

 

11-19-2012%2019_zpshiblmuek.jpg

 

TH-1H's (just USAF Huey IIs) don't use them.

DSC_0007%202_zps9ifhoszn.jpg

 

The Maine forestry service UH-1H rebuilt at Bell Ozark in 2013 doesn't use them.

 

DSC_1461_zpshydxampb.jpg

 

And while you can still see the metal "skirt" below the rotorhead, the AAHF doesn't use them on their UH-1Hs either.  This was taken in 2009.

 

P1020748_zpskjoans9l.jpg

 

Finally, even this UH-1H from the Georgia State Police in 2012 does not have them.  So my question is, who does have the mast bumpers these days?

DSC_0195%20edited_zps2euu7ogf.jpg

 

Edited by rotorwash
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Is ist just me or did anybody else noctice that the kit's parts for the scissors just above the rotating swashplate are a mirror image of reality? That seems the reason why the mast assembly of the Q+D build by KH looks strange.

But I think it is an easy job to fix this: A cut in the joint and then reglue the parted plastic with the horizontal parts inverted.

 

A somewhat tougher cookie is the missing adjustment for the hell hole roof (= base for the main rotor transmission), I think this should be glued at a slight angle forward-downward, because the whole MR assembly is tilted toward the front. Hopefully one of the Huey tech experts around here can shed some light on this. 

These issues notwithstanding I really like the new KH Huey. BTW, the .50 cal M3 are a unexpected bonus, having the longer slitted flash hider. Very good for an OH-58D or a German Navy Lynx.

 

Thanks for being a trailblazer with your build, Ray

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2 hours ago, hawkwrench said:

If mast bumping is so dangerous, why would the mast not have the bumpers?

Man Ray, you must be a Huey pic hoarder! I'd love to see your computer hard drive. I bet they're are thousands of pics!

 

Tim

About 500,000 helo pics, in fact.  Over 65,000 in my personal walkaround collection alone.

   Ray

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5 hours ago, PeepingBear said:

Is ist just me or did anybody else noctice that the kit's parts for the scissors just above the rotating swashplate are a mirror image of reality? That seems the reason why the mast assembly of the Q+D build by KH looks strange.

But I think it is an easy job to fix this: A cut in the joint and then reglue the parted plastic with the horizontal parts inverted.

 

A somewhat tougher cookie is the missing adjustment for the hell hole roof (= base for the main rotor transmission), I think this should be glued at a slight angle forward-downward, because the whole MR assembly is tilted toward the front. Hopefully one of the Huey tech experts around here can shed some light on this. 

These issues notwithstanding I really like the new KH Huey. BTW, the .50 cal M3 are a unexpected bonus, having the longer slitted flash hider. Very good for an OH-58D or a German Navy Lynx.

 

Thanks for being a trailblazer with your build, Ray

Wow, good catch on the scissors.  I had totally missed that.  You are right they are a mirror image of the real thing.  However, I think the main reason that the scissor links are cockeyed on the original KH build is that the rotorhead is slightly out of position and the horizontal portion doesn't wrap around the mast as far as the real thing.  I have tried to compensate for this by using pliers to squeeze the attachment point closer to the midline.  We will see if it works.

   Ray

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Hey Ray thanks so much for both your help to get this kit to market as well as your build review here. I have all of the past Huey models so now it looks like I should not even bother with the ESCI or Italeri kits. Maybe I can build them in-flight with blacked out interiors as a decal subject and not care too much about the accuracy of the kit. We'll see how that goes.

 

Thanks so much too for the great detail photos of the parts you are working on. The KH parts look great and so much closer to the real thing. I am excited to see how you progress with the rest of the build.

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10 minutes ago, 11bee said:

You gotta think about putting out a book or two.   

Based on the pix already posted in this thread, such a book would be a·maz·ing!

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1 hour ago, 11bee said:

You gotta think about putting out a book or two.   

Believe me, I want to.  In fact I have a lot of encouragement to, but it seems I keep spending my time doing other things like work, modeling and acquiring NEW pictures!  It's on the list though.

   Ray

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11 minutes ago, rotorwash said:

Believe me, I want to.  In fact I have a lot of encouragement to, but it seems I keep spending my time doing other things like work, modeling and acquiring NEW pictures!  It's on the list though.

   Ray

Maybe we can do that after the Night Stalker book.

Floyd

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@Hawkwrench, Mast-bumping while dangerous is easily avoided by proper technique in all Bell 2 bladed systems.

 

The bumpers are likely more there for static bumping while starting and stopping in any wind. If you had actual mast bumping in flight the bumpers would do nothing at all to prevent the mast from shearing I believe.

 

Cheers

H.

PS. Our 212's don't have them either...

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18 minutes ago, Winnie said:

@Hawkwrench, Mast-bumping while dangerous is easily avoided by proper technique in all Bell 2 bladed systems.

 

The bumpers are likely more there for static bumping while starting and stopping in any wind. If you had actual mast bumping in flight the bumpers would do nothing at all to prevent the mast from shearing I believe.

 

Cheers

H.

PS. Our 212's don't have them either...

I agree, the bumpers would do little in flight given the forces involved.  I have heard pilots mention that you can feel the bumpers when you get to close to the edge of a potential mast bumping situation though and perhaps that is part of what they were meant to do.

   Ray

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16 hours ago, rotorwash said:

About 500,000 helo pics, in fact.  Over 65,000 in my personal walkaround collection alone.

   Ray

I still have then CD you sent me back in 2007 with ALOT of huye photos...   :) 

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So I finished the main rotors.  Something that is really awesome about the KH kit is that you can build the entire rotorhead and mast and paint them separately form the blades.  I did this and the blades slid right into place on the finished head and mast with just a bit of effort.  NO GLUE REQUIRED!  I also didn't add the scissor links yet as they might complicate the assembly of the blades.  Anyway, it meant that the photos of the KH rotor are at an angle since I had to lay the mast on it;s side.  The other two are simply the painted assembled blades form the kits.

 

So without further ado, here are the pics.  KH blades on top, Italeri in the middle and ESCI on bottom.  The bottoms of the blades are painted black as was the standard practice in Vietnam and the tops OD as was the practice in most units by 1970 which is the approximate time frame of this model.  the yellow tips were measured to be approximately 6 inches in scale, but they are not all three exactly the same.  I think they are pretty close though.  The most obvious differences are the details of the rotorhead (KH blows the other two away by a country mile), the incorrect 212 blades on the Italeri kit, the lack of blade tie downs on the ESCI and Italeri kits and the difference in the sizes of the trim tabs.  Personally, I find the KH blade to have more finesse than the other two and the trim tab look best on it to my eye.

35551332982_cadd0738c2_h.jpg

 

35720103655_9588d359e9_z.jpg

 

KH left, Italeri middle and ESCI right

35720094385_8dea8d71ee_h.jpg

 

 

One issue I do have with the kit is the pre-bent blades.  Here I know Floyd and I may disagree, but to my eye the blades should cone up at the rotorhead (we both agree on that) and then flatten out.  Since this is an OOB build, I didn't want to modify the kit too much, but I had to take some of the bend out of the blades.  Here is what you get in the kit with no modification.

Image may contain: outdoor

 

Here is what I have done thus far.

34910544813_23aa05f4a1_h.jpg

 

I think there is still a little too much droop but it certainly looks better.  In any event, it is a very easy fix since the blades are separate.  It also makes matching them together easier.  Another cool thing about the KH kit is that at this stage the rotorhead itself is floating on the mast.  This means that the rotor can be positioned in a more normal attitude for a parked Huey with the blade tied either level or tilted towards the tail with only a single tie down usually to the stinger, although on the bird below it is tied to the loop antenna on the tail.   Here is an AAHF UH-1H form 2015 showing both the lack of droop in the blades and the tie downs.  I MAY try to flatten the blades a bit more, but to be honest I probably won't push my luck till this build is finished.

  Figure%2038_zpsw847bmhv.jpg

Edited by rotorwash
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Looking good Ray.

 

What I see in the photo of the AAHF UH-1H is more of a twist in the blade then a droop. Additionally I see your rotor head having more of a V shape then horizontal or a flat plane at an angle. Your photos indicate that one side could be be pointing up but not both. I think starting with that adjustment first then the blades would work.   

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8 hours ago, Winnie said:

@Hawkwrench, Mast-bumping while dangerous is easily avoided by proper technique in all Bell 2 bladed systems.

 

The bumpers are likely more there for static bumping while starting and stopping in any wind. If you had actual mast bumping in flight the bumpers would do nothing at all to prevent the mast from shearing I believe.

 

Cheers

H.

PS. Our 212's don't have them either...

  Hawkwrench is correct.  They are easily avoided by proper technique.   They are definitely not for static bumping.  They are for dynamic bumping of the mast.  You could feel them if you were close on maneuvers or on slopes.  They spread out the forces of the teetering rotor system where it came in contact with the mast.   The rotor system has edges where the hub pivots and that would contact the mast in aggressive maneuvers.  The Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers spread that place out and would prevent rotor hub separation.  I never knew of anyone in a Huey or Cobra that had rotor separation.  We had them put on for the first time in Korea in 1992.  I remember because I flew our first one modified.  You didn't really notice it when flying.

Floyd 

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3 hours ago, hawkwrench said:

Not to hijack the thread, but any news on the Night Stalker book Floyd since you mentioned it?

 

Tim

Pictures have been approved now awaiting approval to actually do the book.  Who knew you needed permission to write a book?  I didn't.  Well apparently I do before they will release the photos back to me.  I'm told that most of them had been approved which would be awesome if true.

 

Now back to Ray's build.  Any other responses should go on that thread.

Floyd

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51 minutes ago, Floyd S. Werner, Jr. said:

Pictures have been approved now awaiting approval to actually do the book.  Who knew you needed permission to write a book?  I didn't.  Well apparently I do before they will release the photos back to me.  I'm told that most of them had been approved which would be awesome if true.

 

Now back to Ray's build.  Any other responses should go on that thread.

Floyd

Once this book is out

I will do another MH-6 with the reference on it :)

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16 hours ago, Floyd S. Werner, Jr. said:

  Hawkwrench is correct.  They are easily avoided by proper technique.   They are definitely not for static bumping.  They are for dynamic bumping of the mast.  You could feel them if you were close on maneuvers or on slopes.  They spread out the forces of the teetering rotor system where it came in contact with the mast.   The rotor system has edges where the hub pivots and that would contact the mast in aggressive maneuvers.  The Rubber Baby Buggy Bumpers spread that place out and would prevent rotor hub separation.  I never knew of anyone in a Huey or Cobra that had rotor separation.  We had them put on for the first time in Korea in 1992.  I remember because I flew our first one modified.  You didn't really notice it when flying.

Floyd 

Interesting... Never knew. I don't think those bumpers have ever been available for civvy aplications but I wont say that 100% for certain.

 

We have the hard stop only, i have approximately 3500 hours on bell 2 bladed products and I can honestly say I never seen that...

 

Cool though!

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On 6/15/2017 at 0:48 AM, rotorwash said:

So I finished the main rotors.  Something that is really awesome about the KH kit is that you can build the entire rotorhead and mast and paint them separately form the blades.  I did this and the blades slid right into place on the finished head and mast with just a bit of effort.  NO GLUE REQUIRED!  I also didn't add the scissor links yet as they might complicate the assembly of the blades.  Anyway, it meant that the photos of the KH rotor are at an angle since I had to lay the mast on it;s side.  The other two are simply the painted assembled blades form the kits.

 

So without further ado, here are the pics.  KH blades on top, Italeri in the middle and ESCI on bottom.  The bottoms of the blades are painted black as was the standard practice in Vietnam and the tops OD as was the practice in most units by 1970 which is the approximate time frame of this model.  the yellow tips were measured to be approximately 6 inches in scale, but they are not all three exactly the same.  I think they are pretty close though.  The most obvious differences are the details of the rotorhead (KH blows the other two away by a country mile), the incorrect 212 blades on the Italeri kit, the lack of blade tie downs on the ESCI and Italeri kits and the difference in the sizes of the trim tabs.  Personally, I find the KH blade to have more finesse than the other two and the trim tab look best on it to my eye.

Figure%2036_zpskdrwet2l.jpg

 

KH left, Italeri middle and ESCI right

Figure%2035_zpsrcle3fdd.jpg

 

KH top, Italeri middle, ESCI bottom

Figure%2037_zpsjaecpb9w.jpg

 

One issue I do have with the kit is the pre-bent blades.  Here I know Floyd and I may disagree, but to my eye the blades should cone up at the rotorhead (we both agree on that) and then flatten out.  Since this is an OOB build, I didn't want to modify the kit too much, but I had to take some of the bend out of the blades.  Here is what you get in the kit with no modification.

Image may contain: outdoor

 

Here is what I have done thus far.

Figure%2034_zpsxe1rrqpd.jpg

 

I think there is still a little too much droop but it certainly looks better.  In any event, it is a very easy fix since the blades are separate.  It also makes matching them together easier.  Another cool thing about the KH kit is that at this stage the rotorhead itself is floating on the mast.  This means that the rotor can be positioned in a more normal attitude for a parked Huey with the blade tied either level or tilted towards the tail with only a single tie down usually to the stinger, although on the bird below it is tied to the loop antenna on the tail.   Here is an AAHF UH-1H form 2015 showing both the lack of droop in the blades and the tie downs.  I MAY try to flatten the blades a bit more, but to be honest I probably won't push my luck till this build is finished.

  Figure%2038_zpsw847bmhv.jpg

Fantastic! Ray! 

Yes the KH bend on the blades are a bit exaggerated..but with a bit of work like you did they look nice..

 

Keep on the awesome work!

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I am away from the bench this weekend, but I do have a few odds and ends I can post.  First up is the M23 mount.  According to the instructions, you drill the locator holes AFTER fuselage assembly.  However, this seems like a recipe for disaster to me so I decided to make the locator holes before assemble.  Here's what the fuselage belly looks like OOB.

35680545626_56f875df56_b.jpg

 

I drilled the holes keeping them centered as much as possible, but a slight indent in the center would have really helped.

35720134425_4fe5c58e3c_b.jpg

 

Next I assembled the M23 mount.  It goes together well, but the mounting arms have a bit of play in them so I put them in position and let the assembly dry to endure a correct fit later.  I did not glue the mounts to the fuselage.  That will be for final assembly.  As you can see, it looks like the arms curve slightly inward, but this could be because I didn't center the holes perfectly.

 

35720113085_dd03d3c91f_b.jpg

 

I'll post another small update later.

   Ray

 

Edited by rotorwash
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