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F-4J Blue Angel conundrum


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I'm preparing to build either my Academy or ZM 1/48 F-4J as a Blue Angel. (Sidebar: Which kit should I build?  I have the Eduard cockpit, wheels, nozzles, Hypersonic canopies and other extras.  I only have Eduard nozzles for ZM.  ZM easy and fun??)

 

I've had the old Yellowhammer F-4 BA sheet.  The yellow is a little darker and almost a mustard color.  They give a paint mix suggestion for the BA blue.  BA blue is FS15050.  Consensus is that Testors BA blue is off, and to use a mix of 15052 and a blue from the small square Testors bottle.  I mixed up a batch about 20 years ago and it was a striking shade.  

 

Paint issue #1:  How close are the Yellowhammer instructions to mix BA blue to the real thing?  Gunze makes a FS15050. How close is this?  (I'd prefer to use the Gunze even if a little off.)

 

Paint issue #2:  Which BA yellow is correct?  Testors "BA Yellow", Gunze chrome yellow, or another formula/brand?

 

The yellow brings me to the biggest issue of all........

 

Decal issue #1 (Yellowhammer vs. Cam Pro):  I have the old Yellowhammer sheet and have had the Cam Pro sheet in my Spruebrothers cart, but haven't pulled the trigger.  The yellows are completely different between the two sheets.  Which one is accurate with respect to the correct yellow?  The yellow paints seem to be closer to the Cam sheet, but I really can't tell. 

 

Please see the samples below of the sheets.  CamPro is first and then Yellowhammer 

 

Please tell me what to do.  

 

Chris

 

 

 

IMG_4608.PNG

Edited by swimmer25k
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I'm planning a similar project, using the Z-M kit. I'm just waiting for some Hypersonic canopy details and a solution for the aft fuselage parts for the short afterburner nozzles that doesn't involve me having to modify the kit parts. I'm getting lazy in my old age! 

 

Check out Tommy Thomason's Tailhook Topics blog post on the topic. He gives a great rundown on the Blue Angels colors. His mix for blue is to empty a bottle of Model Master Insignia Blue until there is 21 mm of paint left, as measured from the outside of the bottle, and then add a full bottle of Testors 1111 Blue to it. Perhaps you can do a similar mix with Gunze if you can find a close match to 1111 Blue. 

 

The Blues used Chrome Yellow on the F-4s. The original Yellowhammer sheet had the correct shade of yellow. Cutting Edge reproduced the sheet after they bought the Yellowhammer line, and the yellow in their sheet ended up looking more like a mustard color. I have both sheets, and the one produced by Cutting Edge looks off to me. I've never compared the two sheets to Gunze's Chrome Yellow, so I don't know how good a match the decals are for your paint. I don't have CAM's sheet, so I can't comment on it. 

 

Ben

 

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if the yellow of your decal is of a mustard color... please don't waste your time with it...

as for the BA blue color, it's Krylon True Blue. that's what they use for touch ups on the real thing.

it's available in spray cans, so you have to decanted it before using it with your airbrush.

that's what i've use on mine, and it's spot on.

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Guys,

i just finished the ZM kit as a Blue. I gathered references as best I could including the movie Threshold, the book Airshow, the book Refelctions in Blue, Tommy Tomlinson's articles, a BA yearbook from 1972/3 as well as searching the internet for images.I also used a Thunderbirds F-4 -1 supplement since the pilot's main instrument panel and maybe the RIO/WSO's main panel were similar. Depending on what years of operation you intend to replicate will dictate various subtleties as well. I think the BAs repainted their jets about a year or so after conversion to the F-4s. This explains the difference in the appearance of the "notch" missing on the bare metal areas adjacent to the a/b nozzle apparent in the early 70s and the difference in bare metal leading edges. Other things to consider is the removal of radar gear, so no scopes front or rear. Interestingly, the Blues went with a gaseous vs. liquid oxygen system for compatibility with civilian airports. The rear canopy of both Blues and T-Birds had an ADF antenna installed and it was one of the prominent external features. If you google "Rip Blaisdell Richard Carpenter Thunderbirds" I think you ll find and excellent image of this feature on a Thunderbirds tribute website maintained by a friend of mine, Mike Jacobsen, a former T-bird crew chief.

Regarding colors; I bought a can of Krylon True Blue and decanted it. It is faaarrrrrrrr to bright for the F-4, I mean blinding.  I settled for Model Master  True Blue; what 15050? Their Blue Angel blue looks to dark. Decals: I went with CAM. Model Master BA Yellow is close and works well with touch ups and missles.

   I used thin plastic sheet to extend the fairing or seal around the a/b nozzles. I just wrapped it around and glued it on. I used Eduard resin -8 nozzles. Oh, I have not found a single picture of a BA jet with the long -10 nozzles. There's a pic out there floating around of a Pax River F-4 in BA like markings with -10s but It was not a BA jet. Oh, delete the bellows probe on the vertical. Replace the pitot with a Master Modlel item.

Gosh, I've just scratched the surface. If anyone wants me to send images of mine I will. I havnt had time to put them on ARC.

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Maybe it is not out on the web, but there is a photo of an upright Lead nosed F-4J (B engine) and an inverted Standard F-4J (J engine, BuNo 153876, Aircraft #5, with an early radome) in Double Ugly's USN Phantoms.

 

Also, there are photos of 153839, one in color right after being "un-Blue markinged", in color, and some of her after receiving the NATC lettering. (those are in 1977 and 1990 books, though)

 

Somewhere, just recently, a list of the BA Lead-nosed and "actual J's" was posted,,,,,I just don't remember where it is.

Edited by Rex
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Thanks for all of the responses.  I received a second Yellowhammer decal sheet in the mail yesterday, but didn't see it until today.  The yellow is much brighter than the brown mustardish YH sheet I already had in my decal stash.  I also got Gunze (solvent based) BA yellow (forgot the FS number) and blue (FS15050) in the mail as well. The yellow seems to be very close.  I sprayed the yellow on to a scrap piece of styrene with a hole punched out.  It was almost indistinguishable from one yellow to the next when I slid the new YH sheet underneath. 

 

The BA blue was sprayed on scrap stabilizers and compared to a 1/48 BA Skyhawk I painted about 15 years ago.  The Gunze blue was more rich in color as compared to the Testors painted A-4, which seemed a little gray.  

 

I took pictures, however, photobucket crapped the bed once again.  Any recommended services to use instead of the increasingly crappy photobucket?

 

Thanks again for the help.  

 

Chris 

 

PS: how easy/difficult is the Academy J to the ZM kit?  I'm currently about 1/2 way through an Academy -N and it hasn't been too much of a hassle so far.  

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....and then is when we need Jennings. There are two different Yellowhammer sheets. I have both, the yellow is different. One is accurate the other less so, I don't recall which is which or why.

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The BAs F-4s were painted (originally) with DuPont colors. I saw the specs somewhere but couldn't find color matches and I think Dupont is history. I think anyone modeling a BA F-4 will have to apply artistic license when it comes to the exact color. Another note: the model I chose is a bureau num off the cam sheet. Sadly, all of the original airplanes delivered save maybe one, were lost due to mishap. Another note is the style of crew name used on the canopy frame. They differed depending on period. Commercially available decals don't have much of a choice on names. The cam sheet is for the 1969 era and backseat names aren't included.

   Other notes as I recall: ailerons and flap end caps are red as are speeed board and aux air interiors. The rear nose strut door is BA blue inside as are wheels on nose and mains. I'm not sure of the presence of nose gear door approach lights. I went with them. Regarding the fwd nose gear door; sometime in the early 70s a small American flag was added to the bottom edge of that door. There was a rate of roll light on the left rear fuselage near the navy title. Check photos for that tid  bit.

    As everyone knows, J-79s were notoriously smokey. Early on I don't think the Blues did a lot of polishing back there. Higher  standards of exhaust track cleanliness may have come later judging from photos. My opinion.

    Oh, don't forget the smoke generator tube aft of number one. Photo references of that are tricky for nailing down the exact position but it's a relatively minor detail.

Bottomline: there are lots of subtle details to consider when building a BA F-4. There should be sufficient photo evidence to make a very accurate model though, particularly early in he F-4 years.

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"Here's the real story on the Yellowhammer F-4J decals. This isn't rumor, it's fact, because I'm the guy who did the original artwork for that sheet in 1992. Back then Hal Tippins was the guy behind Yellowhammer. He hired me to do the artwork for the Blues F-4J sheet, which I did. The original was done using original McDD factory documents that Hal had obtained, as well as help from several former Blue Angels. The *original* printing of that sheet was in the correct deep chrome yellow.

Some years later, Hal got out of the hobby biz and sold the Yellowhammer name to Dave Klaus of Meteor Productions. Mr. Klaus reprinted the sheet (and I believe also had it scaled up to 1/32 IIRC). I have no idea who printed the decals, but the yellow that was used was a deep mustard yellow, almost orange. That is *not* correct. The original yellow was correct.

J"

Edited by fulcrum1
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I can think of two ways to try and nail the color down close enough for a model.

 

One would be to contact Sherwin-Williams and inquire as to whether they have a chip for paint number 823-L-722 from the De Soto paint company that they bought out.

 

The other would be to use the Munsell 4.64PB 2.45/5.47 chip in the Monogram color guide volume 4 paint chips, and lay some dried model paint chips up against it. (I would just do it, but, I lent my copy of the book out recently,,,,and it is not due back "home" for a while yet) The 4.64PB chip is for the 1974 Skyhawk season, while the De Soto number is the color used for 1969+ Phantoms.

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