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F-4 Martin-Baker Seat Question


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I've got an easy F-4 question.  

 

I'm currently building the 1/48 Academy F-4B kit as an -N, and using Furball VMFA-531 decals.  The scheme is from the "Operation Eagle Claw" era (1979-80). 

 

Which MB seat is appropriate; H5 or H7?  I have nice resin seats from Hypersonic (H5) and Quickboost/Aires/Eduard/Verlinden (H7).

 

The Eduard H7 headrest looks oversized and the edges too square.  Am I correct in my observation?

 

That's about it.  Thanks for your replies in advance.  

 

Chris

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Hi Chris,

 

F-4Ns were equipped with the later Mk H7 seats. 

 

Regarding the Eduard offering, I concur with you about the proportions. It does appear "top heavy," for lack of a better term.

 

Check the fit of each seat in your model, comparing it to profile views of the real aircraft. On Phantoms (and many other MB equipped fighters - Crusaders, Intruders, Tomcats, etc) the upper portion of the seats remained at a fixed height above the canopy sills. That is, when pilots adjusted the seats for height, only the lower "bucket" sections articulated. 

 

HTHs,

 

Rich

 

 

Edited by RichB63
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I love the whole seat topic. Here are a couple of watch outs because some of these details show up on resin aftermarket seats.

1. Sometime in the late 70s early 80s the rocket pack initiator was moved to the left side of the main beam. The usaf followed suit in the early 80s. This gadget appears as a goldish- green anodized, d-shaped object. I believe it's on the the Eduard Brassin kit and and a couple others I can't recall. Check your references. You'll see it.

2. The other detail is the emergency o2 gauge under the guy's left thigh on the survival kit of usn/mc seats. Throughout the life of usaf jets, the emergency o2 bottle was mounted behind the guy's left kidney. Some replicas sport this correctly..

3. the last big detail is the harness. the RAF had a 20g harness that had gold and blue straps and the seat cushion was leather. I think airwaves and black box are the only guys to get this sort of right. The usaf/usn had a 40g harness. I don't know why,  but some resin castings depict this being pulled all the way out and hanging down. In reality the inertia reel kept it retracted without much of it showing except a few inches of the harness, the Koch fittings that mated with the crew member's harness and the d ring for manual chute deployment.

Oh, the H-5 went away around 66-67ish. I think in reality the H-7 was merely modified from the H-5, not a whole new seat.

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Nice topic. As I remember, on the German Air Force F-4F the front seat moved completely when adjusting the seat height, while the backseat only the lower part with the headrest staying at the same height throughout. GAF and RAF jets not only had different colored  harnesses but also a completely different harness system which I'venever seen depicted in resin. I think airwaves did a photo edge set of it. The GAF also got rid of the so called banana link (yellow flexible tubing on top of the seat) after an inadvertent ejection caused by compression due to FOD. Further the lower seat handle was flexible on GAF seats.

Scout

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On 7/7/2017 at 7:06 AM, SCOUT712 said:

Nice topic. As I remember, on the German Air Force F-4F the front seat moved completely when adjusting the seat height, while the backseat only the lower part with the headrest staying at the same height throughout. GAF and RAF jets not only had different colored  harnesses but also a completely different harness system which I'venever seen depicted in resin. I think airwaves did a photo edge set of it. The GAF also got rid of the so called banana link (yellow flexible tubing on top of the seat) after an inadvertent ejection caused by compression due to FOD. Further the lower seat handle was flexible on GAF seats.

Scout

 

I seriously doubt you are correct about the entire front seat raising and lowering on the Luftwaffe F-4F. That would have taken an entire redesign of the seat to make that happen. Why would they do that when every other Phantom in the world got by with an adjustable seat bucket and rudder pedals? 

  You are mistaken about what the banana links are, too. It's nothing to do with "flexible tubing on top of the seat."

The banana links are two flat metal pieces shaped vaguely like bananas or crescents that are welded at one end to a shaft at the top rear of the seat. During the ejection sequence the shaft rotates, pushing the other end of the banana links into a sear, causing it to fire. The expanding hot gases are then used to cause the rest of the ejection sequencing to occur. It's possible the Germans did a major change to the seat, putting that sear into a different location and designing a different mechanism to fire it, but frankly I doubt that's true. Can you cite a source for your information?

 

http://www.ejectionsite.com/ejctpic/f4seatT.gif

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In this picture you can see some of the differences between the MK H7 seats :upper and lower handles, PSP, harnesses...

The seat on the left is USN, middle is RAF and right is GAF.

I'm still searching for a USAF seat in order to have a complete familly (although JASDF Phantom seats are a little bit diffrent too).

 

426857MKH7famillly4.jpg

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8 hours ago, avnav said:

 

I seriously doubt you are correct about the entire front seat raising and lowering on the Luftwaffe F-4F. That would have taken an entire redesign of the seat to make that happen. Why would they do that when every other Phantom in the world got by with an adjustable seat bucket and rudder pedals? 

  You are mistaken about what the banana links are, too. It's nothing to do with "flexible tubing on top of the seat."

The banana links are two flat metal pieces shaped vaguely like bananas or crescents that are welded at one end to a shaft at the top rear of the seat. During the ejection sequence the shaft rotates, pushing the other end of the banana links into a sear, causing it to fire. The expanding hot gases are then used to cause the rest of the ejection sequencing to occur. It's possible the Germans did a major change to the seat, putting that sear into a different location and designing a different mechanism to fire it, but frankly I doubt that's true. Can you cite a source for your information?

 

http://www.ejectionsite.com/ejctpic/f4seatT.gif

Well, I spent 1600 hours flying in the German Phantom.

Regards

Michael

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8 hours ago, SCOUT712 said:

Well, I spent 1600 hours flying in the German Phantom.

Regards

Michael

Aloha Michael, 

I have five years working on F-4Cs and Es for what that's worth. I did find this about the German seats:

http://www.ejectionsite.com/gh7aseat.htm

The article doesn't mention anything about the Valve Sequencing Assembly replacing the banana links, sear and seat mounted initiator, but from the description it's quite possible if not probable that it is the case. So it's also quite possible I am wrong on that count and you are correct.

 I knew a former RF-4C pilot who described an accident in which a flashlight had been dropped inflight and during maneuvering had wedged itself on top of the WSO's seat between the canopy and top of the banana links.  It's been a long while and I don't remember all of the details, but after the flight after the WSO had unstrapped and turned around to retrieve the flashlight, it somehow caused the banana links to depress the sear, firing the seat through the canopy and killing the WSO. Maybe it was a similar accident to the one you described. It would seem the German modification was a good one. 

  With the seat back and parachute pack attached to the seat beams and the beams attached to the catapult, I still don't see any way to make the entire front seat raise and lower. Again if you have something from 1F-4F-1 or an equivalent that describes it, I would love to see it.

Mahalo,

Scott

Edited by avnav
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