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I think this needs to be said as a reminder (or as an eye-opener for some posters.)

 

In a lot of the kit critique threads it seems that some members are getting things backwards. Especially when critiquing the guys that are only trying to help by providing kit differences.

 

One or two guys seem to like to type things like "a difference that you can only see by comparing red lines is not important." (that is me paraphrasing)

 

But, what people need to realize is that the difference is seen and noticed first, and then the photos, lines, drawings, side by side comparisons, etc, are done afterwards in an attempt to illustrate what that difference is. The dreaded Red Lines are merely attempts to show others, in a predominately text medium, what they saw when they looked at the kits and the parts. If it still doesn't show up well enough for a person to see it,,,,,,looking at the kit themselves,,,,then that doesn't mean it isn't there,,,,,,that only means that any given "auto hater" of kit discussions can't see it, even when it is spelled out for them, and photographed, and red arrows and lines point it out. That is surely not the fault of the guy that opened the kit, and saw it right away.

 

Think of how many times the "accuracy nuts" were cut down on forums, only to see correction sets come out later for those exact same areas of the model. Or a 2015 model declared "perfect" by the guys that can't see the flaws,,,only to have a 2017 model come out later that is also "perfect",,,,,even though they have differences that can be seen in an instant by anyone that has them both. (both can't be "perfect", and maybe neither is)

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I have no problem with kit "variances". Everything I build is straight out of box. If I cannot see anything that stands out as obviously wrong just by looking at the bits then, it is as accurate as I want it. I work on the TLOKTM (That Looks OK To Me) principle.I have experienced at first hand a certain amount of snobbery and elitism among modellers who seek to draw a distinction between "Enthusiasts and Modellers" (them!) and, "kit builders" (us).I get really narked with that sort of attitude. We are all MODELLERS!! We all enjoy the same hobby.How we pursue that hobby is our own individual affair.

I certainly have no problem with rivet counters per se!  I know a couple! They often shake their heads in disbelief at my laissez faire attitude but, it's all fun.If accuracy nuts offer fair and reasonable comment and criticism, again I have absolutely no problem. Unfortunately there are a lot of them who are self important, egotistical blowhards. This is not me ranting. This is actual experience. After nearly a half century of modelling, I like to regard myself as an enthusiastic kit builder who doesn't give a hoot about accuracy!. I said that to one of those aforementioned blowhards and he went away with a face looking like a bulldog chewing a wasp! Very satisfying! And, getting back to the original post here, I certainly agree that " a difference you can see only by comparing red lines is not important." Why should it be? It's all down to the individual and, I don't consider I am a lesser modeller because of it.

 

Allan

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Given the shrinking demographics of our hobby, there should be plenty of room in the tent for both factions.   From a rivet counter's standpoint (which is the side of the spectrum I usually gravitate towards), I find it to be somewhat annoying that when folks note issues with a kit, they get slammed by others who accuse them of nitpicking or being a "hater" of a particular manufacturer.  .  Doesn't matter if it's a major dimensional flaw or just a single missing panel line that only a true expert would catch. I've seen threads where these folks are insulted or simply told to stay out them because they are being overly negative.    Personally, I appreciate being informed of every single issue associated with a kit and am grateful that a modeler took the time to find a picture, mark it up with the dreaded red lines and post it.    At that point, it's on the builder to decide whether the flaw is worth addressing (or if it's even worth purchasing the kit at all).    If you build a model because it looks close enough to Bf-109 or a Huey or whatever, good for you.  If that is your outlook though, why are you even involving yourself in discussions about accuracy issues?  Just ignore those posts since they don't have any value to you and continue building.

 

    

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I agree for the most part - I would like to know about accuracy issues with a given kit and then I can make a personal decision if that is something I care about and want to fix or if it is a non issue for me. On the other hand, I think where the rivet counters get a bad rep is when there are folks in a thread talking about how happy they are with a new kit and the rivet counter jumps in and basically asserts/implies that the new kit is "garbage" because it has one shape issue or a crease line where there shouldn't be in the rear fuselage or whatever. Typically these folks are very blunt in their comments and seem offended that there are people that are happy with a kit that is unacceptable to them.

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yesterday I looked at eight or ten different FW190's in 1/48th. All were from the major players, and all were what I'd consider to be good kits. Yet I read folks rip this and that one to pieces here and there. Yet when everyone was built; I doubt anybody would be call a certain one out. Personally I'm tired of this shill or that shill ragging about somebody else's kit, when he has a personal interest beyond build a kit.

gary

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I like it when the issues with the kit our pointed out with 'red lines.' However, the main problem I observe is the padding of "opinions and adjectives" onto the facts by the experts. I sincerely believe this is what drives people mad. This happens very subtly, but it is almost always there. A subject expert would point out an issue (which is fine), a few others would respond, then another expert would come in supporting the OP, with a subtle swing at the kit manufacturer, how "obvious" the issue is, or a complaint about how they got it wrong with all the available measurement technologies. 

 

It is usually those experts who then feel entitled to decide what is a major vs minor issue. To them, certain things are fixable in 5 mins with a sanding stick, while the next issue over is a reason not to buy the kit. 

 

If the issues with a kit were presented without the extra padding, adjectives, and snide remarks, we can all be happier. 

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On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 11:00 AM, Rex said:

Think of how many times the "accuracy nuts" were cut down on forums, only to see correction sets come out later for those exact same areas of the model.

 

Think of how many times a kit was "botched, screwed, puppy milled" for ridiculously trivial issues: wrong compressor face on an engine that is visible only with gymnastics, a flashlight, and a magnifying glass or wheel well detail that is totally obscure, in all senses of the word. This issue seems to cling to certain posters.  Perhaps it's not what they say, but how they say it?

 

Regards,

Murph

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This is a debate that will never end, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. As some have stated, it's not what is being said, but HOW it's being said. This applies to both sides of the issue. Before posting something, stop and think what it would sound like if you were face to face with the person. For those that enjoy accuracy, cut down on the hyperbole. For those that enjoy building for building sake, take what the other side says as informational and don't think they are talking directly to you when the they say a kit is a piece of garbage. 

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In most of the cases I've observed, it's the rivet counters that get lambasted for their opinion on a more personal level. While it's true they can show passion in their opinions about the model, they typically (not always mind you) keep their comments about the product or company. But the back lash against them usually gets more personal. In my opinion, their opinion is just as valid as anyone else no matter if they are right or wrong. If someone comes out and says "I wouldn't buy that kit because they spell their company name with an "E" when it should have an "I", then hey, that's their prerogative. To most that would be a crazy argument for not buying something. But you never know, there may be more grammar minded people who agree and find that observation very helpful. Yes, that is pulling the narrative to a ridiculous conclusion, but the point is all feedback might be informative. The key is to take all the comments and weight them accordingly without getting personal. The "shut up and build it" comments rarely help anyone at all make a judgement about buying a model. But the "that canopy line is .03mm off might be a huge deciding factor for some. If it's not to you, then that's fine. And if you disagree with their findings then simply post evidence showing where they may be wrong, beyond the simple "well it looks good to me so you're just being nit picky"

That's just my 2 cents.

 

Bill

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Bill, there is a line at the end of your post that really says something that people might not think of.

 

If I am an "everyone has to build OOB like me" kind of modeler, and a "dreaded RC" posts a critique of a kit, typing his opinion of a shape issue with the kit,,,,,,,,,and I then post visual proof or precise dimension data to refute him,,,,,,,,,,what am I then?  Yup, I would have become more of a rivet counter than the dreaded RC that I dislike.

 

Using RC-like data to defend a kit is just being an RC in response.

 

ps, we need two new acryonyms for the hobby anyway,,,,,Rivet Counter was a guy that was so busy critiquing kits that he never got them built, and Advanced Modeler Syndrome was the problem that had guys doing so much work to get it right that they never finished a model. Now we have people typing phrases such as "I Rivet Counted the  spacing of the panel lines, and then AMS kicked in and I rescribed the entire model",,,,,with photos of a finished model in the article.

Edited by Rex
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Every kit should be viewed as a starting point.  For some the journey from that starting point is strictly OOB. For others, it is replacing every perceived shortcoming with scratchbuilt and/or aftermarket corrections/improvements.

 

Choose your path, grasshopper. Do not be swayed by the winds of words of others....

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