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sda1976

1/48 - Sukhoi Su-35 "Flanker-E" by Great Wall Hobby

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Thanks - just to be clear on this I am not taking anyone's side here. One can form an opinion based on the information available; and if I may this process i.e. of trying to find (or get closer to) the absolute truth is probably one of the great aspects of this hobby!!! 

 

Btw, I am really looking forward to receive the G.W.H. kit I have ordered...😀

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First of all the development of the G.W.H Su-35S kit.

 

I am not a CAD person only the research designer, all I could do is to show the shapes based on hundreds of photos and the personal experience of touching the real Su-35 fighter, spending days “learning” its shape.

Initially the G.W.H CAD guys had an intention of making a nose cone as a copy of a Su-27 cone without the pitot because a Russian guy told them that it was not changed at all (the same guy wanted to have a surface full of round "pressings" as on the Su-27 in the area behind the ejection seat, under the canopy, which is completely flat on Su-35).

I have shown my own views, there was a lot of correspondence and exchange of photos and CAD views but in the end managed to persuade them based on hard facts (photos, lots of photos) and not only my subjective views. I am happy with the end result.

Facts like the issue of the lighting protection lines on the sides of the nose cone, which are a recessed line on the real aircraft. And so they are recessed on the kit part. 

I am happy with the end result, the plastic kit.

 

As for the aftermarket:

I am sure the manufacture would be more than happy to show us what the problem is with the kit part. This is important both for their marketing and sales but also for example for me, to learn from a mistake (if there is one) and do a better job next time.

 

But of course there is another side of the story. Jumping on a bandwagon of

“let’s do an aftermarket no matter what, people will buy it (they will not know the difference and we will not tell them)”.

 

I have spoken to several aftermarket manufacturers and they have a “business strategy”:

no matter how good a kit is we will make aftermarket for it because we have to make money. The release of a new kit is a business opportunity for them, it smells of hard cash, so lets grab it.

Which results in an aftermarket product which has no basis of reality, but true, people will buy it even if they don’t know why they should buy it.

 

It is in some cases a question of a mix of National pride and Company politics. Another manufacturer making the same aircraft kit as we do, even if it is good we have to show them that we can make “corrections” to it. No matter what the costs are, it is a question of Company pride!

 

 

Small side note: no kit is perfect and there is always place for improvement. Since I was involved in the initial kit development, I am also interested in its after life, and look closely at people’s opinions, aftermarkets, builds . . .   exactly to learn for future projects.

All the aftermarket producers have missed points, some obvious and some not so obvious which would have needed extra detailing on G.W.H Su-35 kit which was out of scope for a plastic, injection moulded kit.

This is what they should have produced, obviously I will not give them hints.

 

Best regards

Gabor

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4 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

First of all the development of the G.W.H Su-35S kit.

 

I am not a CAD person only the research designer, all I could do is to show the shapes based on hundreds of photos and the personal experience of touching the real Su-35 fighter, spending days “learning” its shape.

Initially the G.W.H CAD guys had an intention of making a nose cone as a copy of a Su-27 cone without the pitot because a Russian guy told them that it was not changed at all (the same guy wanted to have a surface full of round "pressings" as on the Su-27 in the area behind the ejection seat, under the canopy, which is completely flat on Su-35).

I have shown my own views, there was a lot of correspondence and exchange of photos and CAD views but in the end managed to persuade them based on hard facts (photos, lots of photos) and not only my subjective views. I am happy with the end result.

Facts like the issue of the lighting protection lines on the sides of the nose cone, which are a recessed line on the real aircraft. And so they are recessed on the kit part. 

I am happy with the end result, the plastic kit.

 

As for the aftermarket:

I am sure the manufacture would be more than happy to show us what the problem is with the kit part. This is important both for their marketing and sales but also for example for me, to learn from a mistake (if there is one) and do a better job next time.

 

But of course there is another side of the story. Jumping on a bandwagon of

“let’s do an aftermarket no matter what, people will buy it (they will not know the difference and we will not tell them)”.

 

I have spoken to several aftermarket manufacturers and they have a “business strategy”:

no matter how good a kit is we will make aftermarket for it because we have to make money. The release of a new kit is a business opportunity for them, it smells of hard cash, so lets grab it.

Which results in an aftermarket product which has no basis of reality, but true, people will buy it even if they don’t know why they should buy it.

 

It is in some cases a question of a mix of National pride and Company politics. Another manufacturer making the same aircraft kit as we do, even if it is good we have to show them that we can make “corrections” to it. No matter what the costs are, it is a question of Company pride!

 

 

Small side note: no kit is perfect and there is always place for improvement. Since I was involved in the initial kit development, I am also interested in its after life, and look closely at people’s opinions, aftermarkets, builds . . .   exactly to learn for future projects.

All the aftermarket producers have missed points, some obvious and some not so obvious which would have needed extra detailing on G.W.H Su-35 kit which was out of scope for a plastic, injection moulded kit.

This is what they should have produced, obviously I will not give them hints.

 

Best regards

Gabor

 

 

I am bringing mine together currently. Only thing that disappointed me so far is the exhausts. Since I have the Su-33 going on too, I keep comparing the two. Kinetic exhaust are single piece and have the same level of detail. So they are much easier to achieve a better finish. I don't understand why GWH keeps doing these 4 piece exhausts. Same thing was true for their F-15 and Mig-29 kits too. I kind of understand for F-15 featherless exhaust but I don't get it for Flankers and Fulcrums. 

 

Otherwise it is going great ! 😄

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Glad you like the kit.

 

Both Haneto and me tried to persuade the manufacture to have a more simple exhaust where there is an alternative between the “static” version (exhaust “hanging” at a given angle) and to have them in an alternative “flight” / engine running position. G.W.H boss is the boss and he insisted on having an exhaust which can be rotated to any demanded position. I don’t agree with this but he is the boss so there is nothing that I can do.

The “two settings” version would have been simpler to make and to build for the modeller.

 

The four part exhaust is OK for me, although I would have had some other ideas here too. B) B)

 

 

Best regards

Gabor

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Personally I think the radome is fine, I agree with Gabor about the shape difference, even though the overlay photos on page 12 seems to match. I think with curvatures, the differences can be smaller than the line width of the drawing, but still be noticeable in direct comparison, this make things like nose, canopy, spinner difficult to get right.

 

Surely no kit is perfect, but with some kits you can spot general shape problems quickly/easily, and some more difficult, but with GWH's Su-35 my efforts were futile, so to me it's perfect in general shapes, which is the most import thing to me.  However, especially in comparison to the impeccable research, it is a bit let down by the production: flow marks in canopies, sink areas at raised details at multiple places on mine.

 

Anyway, really well done and thank you to Gabor and all, that kind of research... it really turns plastic to gold to me.
 

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On 7/29/2018 at 9:18 AM, Raymond Chung said:

For those Su-33 parts has shrinking please got to www.kineticmodel.com for replacement procedure and we can offer the new replacement and sorry for the trouble caused. 

 

The issue sue has been resolved with changing from outsourcing production to in house production. 

Hi Raymond, that's really good to know! Since when have you switched production or what is my chance to get a in house produced kit, if I buy from a seller in Germany now? I'd like to buy one more kit, but I can wait and prefer to buy a in house produces one, than ask you guys to sent me the sprue, that sprue with the tail planes was riddles with sink marks😣

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9 hours ago, ya-gabor said:

All the aftermarket producers have missed points, some obvious and some not so obvious which would have needed extra detailing

 

Rant mode on.

This statement is SO true, not only of the GWH Su-35 (not sure where but I'll take your word for it), but of countless other kits. It boggles the mind trying to figure out what logic some aftermarket makers use to decide which products to release. Where some kits are screaming for aftermarket help they are ignored and instead we get yet another ACES ejection seat or yet another F-4 phantom exhaust. Not that improvements in technologies don't make new versions of these products desirable, but there are so many kits that desperately need help and are ignored, and these are not obscure or old kits, but new and popular subjects.

Rant mode off.

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On 8/8/2018 at 5:14 PM, B.Sin said:

Mr. Matt Foley, 

       If you read a couple of post up, someone said they're inquiry to Aries as the reason for a nose cone correction piece, was because GWH got the shape of the nose wrong. I would like to see proof of myself.

 

WORD!

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I had the extreme fortune of being able to pick up one of these kits at the local hobby show this weekend, together with a set of Ammo MIG colors for it. I thought I'd read enough reviews to know what to expect, but just seeing it in person (and being able to compare it with another builder's Kitty Hawk build) really made it apparent how much of a gem this kit is. 

 

I am probably in way over my head with this kit, but I'm going to take it really slow, contract out some of the bits I usually have trouble with (I'm handing the cockpit over to a friend who's painted a couple of thousand Warhammer miniatures, so I can concentrate on the building phase), and go completely cold turkey on side builds for a while. Like, five years or so. 🙂

 

After seeing the complicated masking jobs others have had to do in order to paint the bare metal areas in the back after doing the overall camo, I'm thinking the best way of doing this up proper would be to paint the metal bits first, and mask *them* off afterwards. Am I alone in thinking this way?

 

Thanks to Great Wall Hobby, as well as the consultants who've identified themselves in this thread, for making this fantastic kit. 

 

 

Edited by SebastianP

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1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

After seeing the complicated masking jobs others have had to do in order to paint the bare metal areas in the back after doing the overall camo, I'm thinking the best way of doing this up proper would be to paint the metal bits first, and mask *them* off afterwards. Am I alone in thinking this way?

 

I highly recommend the Galaxy masking set for this kit. Contains just about all you will need to mask off the metal areas and other parts that require separate painting. Check link below:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALAXY-D48005-1-48-SU-35S-Colour-Separation-Flexible-Mask-for-Great-Wall-L4820/152958045092?epid=4016242143&hash=item239d028ba4:g:Na8AAOSwD4latw5q

 

Also, I don't think the Ammo Mig colors are terribly accurate. Not sure if color accuracy is important to you. If it is, I would check out MRP and AKAN paints. If you are into water based acrylics, then for sure AKAN as they make water based acrylic paints along with lacquer and enamel versions of their paints. They are also very accurate and usually matched to factory samples.

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1 hour ago, Mstor said:

 

I highly recommend the Galaxy masking set for this kit. Contains just about all you will need to mask off the metal areas and other parts that require separate painting. Check link below:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/GALAXY-D48005-1-48-SU-35S-Colour-Separation-Flexible-Mask-for-Great-Wall-L4820/152958045092?epid=4016242143&hash=item239d028ba4:g:Na8AAOSwD4latw5q

 

Also, I don't think the Ammo Mig colors are terribly accurate. Not sure if color accuracy is important to you. If it is, I would check out MRP and AKAN paints. If you are into water based acrylics, then for sure AKAN as they make water based acrylic paints along with lacquer and enamel versions of their paints. They are also very accurate and usually matched to factory samples.

 

Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking I'm probably going to be building up my supplies to tackle this over a few months before I start, I'm most likely also going to need to get the Begemot decal sheet given what happen to Matt from Doog's models, and I really need to get some better metallic paints than what I have. Right now though, I'm plain out of cash, as that kit ate my entire hobby budget for this month. 

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25 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

 

Thanks for the tip. I'm thinking I'm probably going to be building up my supplies to tackle this over a few months before I start, I'm most likely also going to need to get the Begemot decal sheet given what happen to Matt from Doog's models, and I really need to get some better metallic paints than what I have. Right now though, I'm plain out of cash, as that kit ate my entire hobby budget for this month. 

I have that sheet. Let me know which version you intend to build and I'll send the required markings. No cost. It'd be my pleasure to help. Unless it's the eggplant-colored version, then I can't help.

Edited by goondman

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2 minutes ago, goondman said:

I have that sheet. Let me know which version you intend to build and I'll send the required markings. No cost. It'd be my pleasure to help. Unless it's the eggplant-colored version, then I can't help.

 

Thanks for the offer. I have no idea what options are even on the Begemot sheet right now, I was thinking of ordering one together with the masking set and figuring out which one to make after studying it for a bit. The kit decals doesn't even have the option to do the eggplant, so I wasn't considering it before, but if the Begemot sheet has it I'm going to have to think really hard on the matter. 🙂

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4 minutes ago, SebastianP said:

 

Thanks for the offer. I have no idea what options are even on the Begemot sheet right now, I was thinking of ordering one together with the masking set and figuring out which one to make after studying it for a bit. The kit decals doesn't even have the option to do the eggplant, so I wasn't considering it before, but if the Begemot sheet has it I'm going to have to think really hard on the matter. 🙂

Well, there not going anywhere. When you're ready email me: goondman9@gmail.com

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1 hour ago, SebastianP said:

 

Thanks for the offer. I have no idea what options are even on the Begemot sheet right now, I was thinking of ordering one together with the masking set and figuring out which one to make after studying it for a bit. The kit decals doesn't even have the option to do the eggplant, so I wasn't considering it before, but if the Begemot sheet has it I'm going to have to think really hard on the matter. 🙂

 

The Eggplant grey scheme was used on early Su-35Ss that had the tail stinger flare dispensers mounted on the top. For the major production runs the dispensers were moved to the bottom and the three color light blue greys are the standard scheme. I believe the early ones with the dispensers on the top had them moved to the bottom, but I don't know if they retained the Eggplant grey scheme. I purposely bought one of the Kitty Hawk Su-35s as it has the dispensers mounted on top and can be done in the early Eggplant scheme.

 

BTW, You can look at the Begemot instructions for the decals on their site. Will at least give a basic idea what schemes are available.

http://www.begemotdecals.ru/showpos.php?lang=2&id=152

 

 

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59 minutes ago, B.Sin said:

Does anybody have any clues or rumors of what GWH might be doing next ?

 

F-14A Tomcat.

 

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23 minutes ago, Solo said:

 

F-14A Tomcat.

 

 

You are cruel and heartless, I like it :rofl:

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1 hour ago, B.Sin said:

Does anybody have any clues or rumors of what GWH might be doing next ?

Please let me a new tooled f-22 kit !!

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25 minutes ago, Stinger16 said:

Please let me a new tooled f-22 kit !!

That would be nice.

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2 hours ago, B.Sin said:

Does anybody have any clues or rumors of what GWH might be doing next ?

 

I’m hoping a 1/48 CF-5 or CF-101 Voodoo.

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Frankly said I believe GWH will issue F-14D or B, after A.

They probably will overtake AMK. 🙂

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Regarding the GWH decals. I used the kit decals on my review build for Finescale Modeler, and had no problems what-so-ever. The decals behaved perfectly, with no silvering, and they all settled down into engraved details with no issues. 

 

Doog's had decal issues (a "color shift" of the paint around the decal) because he did not use a gloss clear over the camouflage paint. He insisted that the MrPaint that he had used was smooth enough to apply decals on. And while that may be the case, it is well known that applying clear coats, either gloss, matt, or somewhere in between, changes the color to some degree of the underlying paint. Now, if you put a decal on bare paint, then a clear coat, the color under the decal will not be changed as it is under the clear coat, and you end up with 2 distinctly different colors, one under the decal, and the other under clear coat, as occurred to Doogs. If you clear coat the entire area, then the entire area changes to the same degree. 

 

In my case, I also used MrPaint, and Akan lacquer for the main camouflage. Then applied a Gunze "GX" clear gloss lacquer, (And thus "color shifting" the entire airframe) then decals applied using Micro Set and Sol, then sealed with Gunze GX, (This brings the surface of the decals to the same level of finish as the areas around them. If you do not seal the decals with the same clear as they were applied on, they invariably end up being a different sheen to the surrounding area) Then the entire model matt clear coated and weathered.

 

Model making is a series of processes. Understanding those processes, some of which have been "standard practice" for many, many years, leads to successful results. It is when you try and skip steps, as Doogs did on his Su-35, that you run into problems. 

 

M

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Thank you Matt, that puts a few things into perspective for sure. Also, after having reviewed the instructions for the Begemot decals, it looks like all of them are primarily for the early examples with the flare launchers on top of the stinger rather than the configuration that GWH offers, so I'd essentially have to use the kit instructions as my guide for the airframe specific markings anyway...

 

It'll be a year or so before I have to worry about the decals anyway though, at the planned pace for the construction of this thing. 🙂

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