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Minibase Su-33 1/48


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Hi Ran,

I was going to PM my reply to you instead of answering it on the thread, but thought it wouldn’t have been fair to all those interested fellas who’ve read your reply to me here.

 

5 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

    In my opinion, if your motivation to make a model is to pursue its accuracy. Abandoning a kits far below the standard will not cause any loss.

 

 

I wholly agree there; it’s not a loss if I’m a 100% certain that the revised project of this same model will spare me all the grief (and the tons of work) from having to get parts from either Kitty Hawk or Great Wall Hobby in order to correct this kit which is far below the standard, yes. Hence, I was rather waiting for a better replica - as promised by Aviation Art quite some time ago - than to have to go through the process of getting the required parts, and then risk the integrity of kit which is far below, yet expensive, because of my having to correct it.

Otherwise not only will I lose money but also my time.

 

5 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

At least on the way to waiting, You will not be lonely. In the past, I lost more than 10,000 times more than you on this project. The Frustration did not make me feel depressed, We spend a few years, Rebuild all projects. There is no doubt that it currently meets the original design requirements. Thanks again to the friends who provided reference on the ARC forum. I don't think he will let the friends who are pursuing the correctness of the model feel disappointed.

 

 

Well, that’s the rub right there, Ran; the waiting. It’s not about being lonely in it or how many times I lost compared to you. I’m a modeller; I’ll buy those kits that I consider worth buying. I have never promised to deliver the best ever kit. It’s you who did.

It’s also a strange behaviour that I’m seeing happen with manufacturers as of late, very annoying, by the way; it’s this sort of race to win the hearts of the modellers. It’s been aeons since the V2.0 was announced, and for while that announcement was met by some degree of following, i.e., the display of info, CAD progress reports and the likes, to then, and all of the sudden, remain in the most deafening silence for a long period. No-one had a single clue what had been of you, the project, the release date, nothing. And time went by forever until we learnt something from you again. How come, Ran?

 

5 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

    In the past 2018,Because some designs exceed the processing capacity of the current factory. We need to make some compromise modifications to some overly extreme designs. Used to ensure stable quality during mass production. The number of newly designed parts is significantly higher than the original design, resulting in more modification time. At the same time it is also a process of exploring learning. This is the main reason for delay in listing. We are actively working with the factory to improve. It is expected that the product will be able to meet with us this year.

 

 

Excuse me, Ran, but with all due respect, this sounds exactly like that sorry spiel by AMK all over again. This is the Crash Course 101 on what NOT to do. It’s become the mirror in where manufacturers should look at. This post is just words to me; not even an excuse for a delayed project because it’s being said awful late. Unfortunately, it’s been a long spell since I’d taken that the moulds were almost ready for an injection test much sooner than last November. Why didn’t you share this info with us back then? I for one wouldn’t have waited (or sold my Kinetic kit). Perhaps this is small stuff to you, but it’s real infuriating to me.

 

5 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

   Always support our friends who care about us can rest assured. The project has now largely ruled out most of the production barriers and Progressing well. It obviously deserves patience.

 

There’s a limit for everyone’s patience. Even more so when there’s no news whatsoever to tell where the project currently stands. Top that off, Ran, some days ago someone pointed me to the Aviation Art Su-33 V2.0 project thread on Britmodeller… I was utterly dejected at reading it through and through! The things I read there were really confusing, to say the least. Accusations flying back and forth, misinformation whether the project was still on or not, etc. So, in any case, you can but understand my disappointment now. I kept my faith for longer than I thought. Now I rather go with the hard facts and get the Kinetic kit once again and correct those issues I’m not happy about it than to keep on wasting my time waiting for a better kit.

 

5 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

   At last,We have not charged anyone the order amount. I only said that we will try to achieve things as soon as possible. I can't understand who I sold to a bunch of silly lies?

 

I honestly take back that you’ve sold me lies, and I apologise to you for having said so. Somehow now you could see why I felt like you did? Be that as it may, AMK hasn’t charged me either, Ran, still I can assure you that I don’t trust them any more for what they’ve done, and I was put in the Sin Bin for having made that clear to them at their thread.

The day I see your V2.0 out on the market - let’s hope so - that’s the day I’ll consider buying it. All in all, I truly appreciate your having taken the time to quote my complaint on this thread.

I'm no-one, Ran; just a single modeller who lost faith in your project. I thought I might as well come clean about it.

Cheers Ran,

 

Onigiri 

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So much wasted emotional energy. Invest it in what's out there and available.

 

The Kinetic Sea Flanker is a fantastic place holder, as are the Tamiya Tomcats. 

 

As are the three Trumpeter Flagons I have which ain't going nowhere before GWH or another firm produces an accurate kitset.

 

Tony

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1 hour ago, Nino_Belov said:

My advice to producers will be, don't tell anything until you are ready to at least show first molds, i have spend a lot of energy on this project...a lot...

 

I don't know about this. I think its a good idea for the producers to share CAD and 3D printing of parts and sections of the model. Then we can critique and give advise. Tell them were problems are present. The problem arises when, after much communication, the producer goes silent and gives no further updates. We are left to wonder what is going on? In the case of Aviation Art, we wonder if the project is even still on. With AMK we wonder if they are correcting issues we saw but they denied existed. It becomes very easy to lose faith. Once a producer starts regular communication with potential customers and an solicits advice, we become involved and interested. When all of a sudden the producer goes silent... well you see what happens.

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3 hours ago, Doppelgänger said:

Hi Ran,

I was going to PM my reply to you instead of answering it on the thread, but thought it wouldn’t have been fair to all those interested fellas who’ve read your reply to me here.

 

 

 

I wholly agree there; it’s not a loss if I’m a 100% certain that the revised project of this same model will spare me all the grief (and the tons of work) from having to get parts from either Kitty Hawk or Great Wall Hobby in order to correct this kit which is far below the standard, yes. Hence, I was rather waiting for a better replica - as promised by Aviation Art quite some time ago - than to have to go through the process of getting the required parts, and then risk the integrity of kit which is far below, yet expensive, because of my having to correct it.

Otherwise not only will I lose money but also my time.

 

 

 

Well, that’s the rub right there, Ran; the waiting. It’s not about being lonely in it or how many times I lost compared to you. I’m a modeller; I’ll buy those kits that I consider worth buying. I have never promised to deliver the best ever kit. It’s you who did.

It’s also a strange behaviour that I’m seeing happen with manufacturers as of late, very annoying, by the way; it’s this sort of race to win the hearts of the modellers. It’s been aeons since the V2.0 was announced, and for while that announcement was met by some degree of following, i.e., the display of info, CAD progress reports and the likes, to then, and all of the sudden, remain in the most deafening silence for a long period. No-one had a single clue what had been of you, the project, the release date, nothing. And time went by forever until we learnt something from you again. How come, Ran?

 

 

 

Excuse me, Ran, but with all due respect, this sounds exactly like that sorry spiel by AMK all over again. This is the Crash Course 101 on what NOT to do. It’s become the mirror in where manufacturers should look at. This post is just words to me; not even an excuse for a delayed project because it’s being said awful late. Unfortunately, it’s been a long spell since I’d taken that the moulds were almost ready for an injection test much sooner than last November. Why didn’t you share this info with us back then? I for one wouldn’t have waited (or sold my Kinetic kit). Perhaps this is small stuff to you, but it’s real infuriating to me.

 

 

There’s a limit for everyone’s patience. Even more so when there’s no news whatsoever to tell where the project currently stands. Top that off, Ran, some days ago someone pointed me to the Aviation Art Su-33 V2.0 project thread on Britmodeller… I was utterly dejected at reading it through and through! The things I read there were really confusing, to say the least. Accusations flying back and forth, misinformation whether the project was still on or not, etc. So, in any case, you can but understand my disappointment now. I kept my faith for longer than I thought. Now I rather go with the hard facts and get the Kinetic kit once again and correct those issues I’m not happy about it than to keep on wasting my time waiting for a better kit.

 

 

I honestly take back that you’ve sold me lies, and I apologise to you for having said so. Somehow now you could see why I felt like you did? Be that as it may, AMK hasn’t charged me either, Ran, still I can assure you that I don’t trust them any more for what they’ve done, and I was put in the Sin Bin for having made that clear to them at their thread.

The day I see your V2.0 out on the market - let’s hope so - that’s the day I’ll consider buying it. All in all, I truly appreciate your having taken the time to quote my complaint on this thread.

I'm no-one, Ran; just a single modeller who lost faith in your project. I thought I might as well come clean about it.

Cheers Ran,

 

Onigiri 

Hi Doppelgänger

   The act of doing a purchase may only take a few minutes or even less. Even with international transportation time, it is only a week or a few months. But designing a rigorous engineering project takes ten times or more. Prior to this, our processing requirements and limitations for precision molds were unknown. The workload is much more than we expected.  We need to carefully observe each part and exclude areas that do not meet production specifications. In another aspect. It also poses a challenge to mold manufacturing. Therefore, the communication and modification work is essential. Otherwise,serious or even irreversible situations will occur when entering the testing phase of the product. Fortunately, we have the full support of the mold manufacturer. Although it took a long time, the close communication made the revision work well. I think this is an acceptable objective reality. Of course, in the process, I can't arbitrarily issue irresponsible listing dates to let the builders look forward to. Then can't cash.
    Maybe you just misunderstood some of the previous readings.People have the right to freedom,  Builders can choose the right kit for their purchase.I have no intention of influencing anyone’s purchase intention.
    When the project enters the stage of manufacturing engineering. Because it only involves the processing technology; the difficulty and cost, etc. There is absolutely no need to discuss this in the forum. As mentioned earlier, all I can do is do my best to achieve my goals as quickly as possible. When all the work is done, I will post a thread about the product introduction.

 

           Thanks

 

              Ran

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3 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

The act of doing a purchase may only take a few minutes or even less. Even with international transportation time, it is only a week or a few months. But designing a rigorous engineering project takes ten times or more. Prior to this, our processing requirements and limitations for precision molds were unknown. The workload is much more than we expected.  We need to carefully observe each part and exclude areas that do not meet production specifications. In another aspect. It also poses a challenge to mold manufacturing. Therefore, the communication and modification work is essential. Otherwise,serious or even irreversible situations will occur when entering the testing phase of the product. Fortunately, we have the full support of the mold manufacturer. Although it took a long time, the close communication made the revision work well. I think this is an acceptable objective reality. Of course, in the process, I can't arbitrarily issue irresponsible listing dates to let the builders look forward to. Then can't cash.

 

Onigiri, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here but... 

Ran, all that is well and fine, but how were we to know this if you don't communicate with us? It doesn't take a lot of time or energy. Just a message every now and then stating that you are working through difficulties experienced in the mold production and for us to please hang in there. Doesn't even need to be on more than one forum, as we tend to communicate and be involved with multiple forums and the news spreads fast.

Many modelers on this and other forums tend to be very passionate about this hobby. We become emotionally involved. In this age of expanding modeling technologies our expectations are becoming higher and higher. We are often impatient. We are ever looking for the newest and best model kits. When one is announced and promised, well we want to see it, soon. But we can't read the model producer's minds. If they promise something and then stop communicating, we tend to think the worse. Communication is the key.

 

Mark

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15 hours ago, SuperTomcat21 said:

 Of course, in the process, I can't arbitrarily issue irresponsible listing dates to let the builders look forward to. Then can't cash.

 

I wish more companies followed this methodology. It might be best that others follow this advice as well.

Edited by Mr Matt Foley
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Well, I'm all for the pursuit of perfection, but just to be fair, the V1.0/Kinetic is FAR from a kit that is "far below the standard",  I've seen far below the standards kits, but I don't look at them, so I won't name any here. The newly produced Kinetic kit also have much improved injection quality, with no short shot edges and greatly reduced sink marks, IMO it's at least comparable with the level of, let's say Hasegawa. Anyway, to me the V1.0 captures the beauty of the Flanker quite well. So it doesn't have the double S cross section strake, but that's really much less noticeable than on a Su-27/35, because much less area is affected due to the extended section for the canards.  I'm sure that V2.0 will be great, but calling V1.0 far below the standard, that'd be a huge jump IMO.

    
By the way, the V1.0 canopy/cockpit is surely a bit too narrow, I didn't see that mentioned in the corrections of V2.0. Here is a comprasion of the canopy with and GWH's Su-35's, photographed from the base of the canopy. I think the difference is rather clear, also the outline of the base is different. Both canopies are not deformed, as they fit well to the fuselage opening. I'm not saying that GWH's Su-35 is 100% correct, I think that the base of the Flanker's canopy is really difficult to get right without measurements or factory support, while the side view profile of the two kit's canopies match each other well, there is noticable shape difference from above/bottom/front view. From the many photos I've checked, I believe that the truth lies somewhere inbetween, but maybe indeed closer to GWH's interpretation. If it wasn't too late, I hope AA/Ran would further investigate it.

 

Anyway, I wish AA/Ran good luck, will check out the V2.0 kit later then.

679216739_Unbenannt(2).thumb.png.d73b08d1dad75bb990d114fb1025a763.png


 

Edited by delide
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On 1/21/2019 at 2:35 AM, Mstor said:

Onigiri, I hope you don't mind me chiming in here but... 

 

Not at all, Mark. You're damn right. I'm done waiting for kits that are just but a cloud of smoke. Not any more.

Got a Kinetic 1/48 Su-33 kit rather cheap from a local modeller who saw I was looking for one + ordered both fuselage halves from Great Wall Hobby in order to correct the round shape at the forward fuselage area on both sides of the cockpit, and the area below it. As for the cockpit floor, I'm thinking about deepen it with plastic stock. There's this mate who has lend me the cockpit tub from the GWH Su-35, and it looks like adding a couple millimetres will suffice.

Cheers,

 

Onigiri

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14 hours ago, Doppelgänger said:

 

Not at all, Mark. You're damn right. I'm done waiting for kits that are just but a cloud of smoke. Not any more.

Got a Kinetic 1/48 Su-33 kit rather cheap from a local modeller who saw I was looking for one + ordered both fuselage halves from Great Wall Hobby in order to correct the round shape at the forward fuselage area on both sides of the cockpit, and the area below it. As for the cockpit floor, I'm thinking about deepen it with plastic stock. There's this mate who has lend me the cockpit tub from the GWH Su-35, and it looks like adding a couple millimetres will suffice.

Cheers,

 

Onigiri

 

You are an ambitious fellow my friend. I'm just building mine as is (with the usual assortment of aftermarket trinkets). Its coming along slowly. Getting near the end, but it seems the closer to finishing I get, the slower I get. Oh well... :dontknow:

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Hi Mark! :wave:

 

16 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

Well, everybody can not do that option my friend. Kit will came out.

 

Possibly true, my mate. But how I wish every modeller interested in a more accurate 1/48 Su-33 kit could be able to correct the Kinetic kit this way so as they would no longer be hostages to a long-promised Aviation Art V.20 kit... :whistle: 

Cheers,

 

Onigiri

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40 minutes ago, Nino_Belov said:

I don't see a reason that they lie us , not after all.

 

You're probably right but, once burned, twice shy. There have been other companies that promised much and delivered little. We've all become quite cynical these days as it is too easy to post promises and reassurances. They cost nothing, except reputation, if they care about that. Often they don't as they are nothing but a name in a post somewhere. Here today, gone tomorrow, only to be resurrected under a new moniker somewhere else.

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1 hour ago, Nino_Belov said:

I don't think that they lie.

 

Didn't say they did. Just talking in generalities about model businesses and individuals speaking for those businesses. About how communications are managed these days. Not speaking specifically about Aviation Art. We, the potential customers, really don't know what's going on over there. I think we've all become a bit "gun shy" when it comes to product announcements. Even when accompanied by lots of pretty CAD. There have been Trumpeter kits there were announced years and years ago, along with CAD or masters. They've never been heard of since. Vaporware. So, for many of us, it comes down to "show us the beef" :thumbsup:

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4 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

I don't see a reason that they lie us , not after all. 

 

4 hours ago, Nino_Belov said:

I don't think that they lie.

 

56 minutes ago, Nino_Belov said:

And I think that we will see it.

 

I concur; once burnt, twice shy. And we've all become quite a bit "gun shy" regarding this.

:hmmm:Be that as it may; Nino, you sound just like a biased politician there: "I don't see a reason that they lie to us"; "I don't think that they lie"; "I think that we will see it."  Why is it too hard for you to affirm: "They're NOT lying to us"; "I'm (a100% positive/I can assure you) that we'll see it"; "I know that we will see it?" Take the leap of faith and state it right here in the open, mate, so that everyone will remember it the day the kit sees the light. Likewise, if the other way round, of course.

Cheers,

 

Onigiri  

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1 hour ago, Doppelgänger said:

 

 

 

I concur; once burnt, twice shy. And we've all become quite a bit "gun shy" regarding this.

:hmmm:Be that as it may; Nino, you sound just like a biased politician there: "I don't see a reason that they lie to us"; "I don't think that they lie"; "I think that we will see it."  Why is it too hard for you to affirm: "They're NOT lying to us"; "I'm (a100% positive/I can assure you) that we'll see it"; "I know that we will see it?" Take the leap of faith and state it right here in the open, mate, so that everyone will remember it the day the kit sees the light. Likewise, if the other way round, of course.

Cheers,

 

Onigiri  

 

 

What makes think that he has to do so?

Just because we would like to be reassured or would like to know dates etc. does not mean that vendors or any of their partners have to do so.

Would be nice, but they don't have to. Also, when they fail, it is just that, they fail. We all fail to meet deadlines and customer contractual obligations more than often. And life moves on.

Edited by DIO
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  • Petarvu changed the title to Minibase Su-33 1/48

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