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Calling all P-47D Thunderbolt Experts . . . need some help


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I discovered a few years ago that my Great Uncle (Arthur Grant Sylvester) was killed on a combat mission near Metz, France in late 1944. He flew the P-47D-26 with the 362nd Fighter Group, 378th Fighter Squadron. He was killed on a bombing mission when (apparently) AAA hit his plane causing him to crash. He was declared missing for about a year before his body was recovered and returned to Utah. 

 

This info came as quite a shock to me and my brother as my parents and grandparents had never spoken about him. Given our family's interest in aviation - and having three pilots in the immediate family - you would have thought that this little tidbit of family history would have surfaced before now . . . but I digress.

 

So I'm finally building my Great Uncle's P-47D which will be displayed on a base surrounded by photos of him. Unfortunately, I don't have any photos of his plane. Here's where I need the help.

 

1. I'm fairly confident based on my research that this was a "bubble top" Thunderbolt - but would like some independent verification. My understanding is that every Thunderbolt from the -25 model on was the "bubble top" variety. Is this true?

2. Squadron Markings - I know he was in the 378th and part of the "Firebrick" flight on the day of his last mission. The lettering on the fuselage would have been "G8 - ___. I have no idea what that last letter would have been, but I'll take some artistic license here. No biggie. However, I've found conflicting information about the color of the engine cowl. One calling for a "cobalt blue" and another site calling for a "yellow band" around the nose. Any help here would be much appreciated!

3. I've got the MCAR - which doesn't give much detail. But i'm having trouble even finding a picture of a 378th P-47D-26 Thunderbolt. Any help / advice on finding a photo of one of the squadron's aircraft from the 1944 - 1945 timeframe would be most appreciated.

 

Thanks for reading!

 

Jim

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Yes, the D-26-RA was bubbletop, identical to the D-26-RE, but manufactured in Evansville, IND rather than Farmingdale, NY. RA was the code for Evansville, RE the code for Farmingdale.

 

There's a color profile of a 378th bubble top here:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/URG_legends_main_matteJZ.html

 

but you've probably already found it?

 

Dana Bell's Air Force Colors Volume 2 posits dark blue cowling band; you can probably take that to the bank.

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Thanks for the reply and info. One question. Is the middle stripe / anti-glare segment running down the fuselage olive drab or flat black?? 

 

There is a colorized YouTube video of the 362nd FG and has a few shots of blue nose bubble top Thunderbolts. The profile pic you posted has a olive drab stripe / anti-glare panel down the middle, but the very grainy YouTube video seems to show a black anti-glare panel. Any thoughts??

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Probably outside the scope of this project in terms of digging really deep and consuming time, but I wonder if there is a historical group for the 362nd FG/378th FS that may have detailed logs for AC serial numbers flown by pilots? It had to have been known/logged which AC he was flying on the day he was shot down and odds are that info is out there...somewhere. If you can somehow manage a serial number for that AC then who knows where that might lead. You never know, you may even uncover a picture(s) of your Great Uncle and/or one of his AC via an historical group? What a great project you have! Good luck and enjoy.

Regards,

Don

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1 hour ago, seawinder said:

We do know the serial number (https://obscureco.wordpress.com/tag/378th-fighter-squadron/page/9/  , scroll down to the 4th section):

42-28295

Wow! It's just amazing the information that can be crowd-sourced.

 

1 hour ago, Collin said:

A toast to your Great Uncle. 

.Indeed! :cheers:

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Thanks to everyone for the info, research, and comments! Much appreciated. Having a copy of the MACR, I've got the serial number and some other details from the mission he was killed on. I've also been in touch with some individuals who've done quite a bit of research on the 362nd - and even helped correct the "official" record that one author was using when it came to my Great Uncle. The author had written (based on prior first hand interviews) that my Great Uncle ("Grant") survived the crash, evaded capture for almost a year, then returned to the squadron. None of which was true. 

 

The flight leader noted on the MACR that he saw Grant drop though the overcast, drop his bombs on a railroad junction (which was destroyed on the mission), then disappear. Nobody in the flight ever saw him after that. He was initially listed as "missing" then later changed to KIA.


He received the Purple Heart and Air Medal. Thankfully, my aunt is pretty involved in family history and has some good pictures of Grant during flight training, when he first arrived in the ETO (May 1944), etc. Just no pictures or info after D-day.

 

Thanks again!

 

Jim

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6 hours ago, seawinder said:

As for the anti-glare stripe down the fuselage, OD was by far more common, so lacking any unambiguous documentation, I'd go with that.

 

 

Anti glare was "olive drab 41" on the three blueprints about Insignia & markings
C to D25 model(1942), & N(1944)
below  D25 to M (1943)

antiglare.jpg.872f02d7207ea28038d07543cf03c39e.jpg

 

Edited by Sowar
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I will be following this thread with great interest.  I love to see stories about when people discover a family member who fought valiantly for our great country and do research to find all they can.  I also had a Great Uncle (Thomas Meehan, CO, Easy Company, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne) who was killed when the C-47 (42-93095) he and his HQ staff were in on the morning of June 6th, 1944, was shot down and exploded on impact with a hedgerow.  I have done a lot of research, but know there is more out there and plan to build "his" C-47 and include it in a diorama.  I look forward to your progress and please post updates from time to time.  Good luck my friend!

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1 hour ago, JesusNut said:

I will be following this thread with great interest.  I love to see stories about when people discover a family member who fought valiantly for our great country and do research to find all they can.  I also had a Great Uncle (Thomas Meehan, CO, Easy Company, 506th PIR, 101st Airborne) who was killed when the C-47 (42-93095) he and his HQ staff were in on the morning of June 6th, 1944, was shot down and exploded on impact with a hedgerow.  I have done a lot of research, but know there is more out there and plan to build "his" C-47 and include it in a diorama.  I look forward to your progress and please post updates from time to time.  Good luck my friend!

The same Lt. Meehan referenced in the book and HBO mini-series "Band of Brothers"? If so that is very interesting indeed. You've probably already seen this:

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Plane66-Crash.htm

 

My Grandfather was in 420 Snowy Owl Squadron (No. 6 Group RCAF Bomber Command) equipped with Halifax and Lancaster bombers. When he passed I came across a thick legal sized envelope filled with pictures of Halifax and Lancasters of his Squadron and its sister Squadron 425. Nose art, mission markings, airfield vehicles, he and his buddies horsing around and just general pictures of his years in England during World War II. They are among my prized possessions.

 

Good stuff all!

 

Regards,

Don

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2 minutes ago, Don said:

The same Lt. Meehan referenced in the book and HBO mini-series "Band of Brothers"? If so that is very interesting indeed. You've probably already seen this:

http://www.check-six.com/Crash_Sites/Plane66-Crash.htm

 

My Grandfather was in 420 Snowy Owl Squadron (No. 6 Group RCAF Bomber Command) equipped with Halifax and Lancaster bombers. When he passed I came across a thick legal sized envelope filled with pictures of Halifax and Lancasters of his Squadron and its sister Squadron 425. Nose art, mission markings, airfield vehicles, he and his buddies horsing around and just general pictures of his years in England during World War II. They are among my prized possessions.

 

Good stuff all!

 

Regards,

Don

Yes sir.  The same Lt. Meehan.  Growing up I had always heard it was a glider crash.  I did not learn otherwise until I read the book.  I have seen that reference, but thank you for including it.  My 2nd cousin, his daughter, is very active in keeping his memory alive.  She was the one who provided the tail number to me and this has allowed me to learn much more.  I have not been able to find any pictures as of yet, but she only lives about an hour from me and I am hoping she has some more pictures I am not aware of yet.  

 

I can imagine that those documents and pictures are treasured.  That is absolutely awesome.  Have you modeled any of those aircraft?  If so, I would love to see some pictures.  I am waiting to start mine as I want to get some modeling experience under my belt before I do so.  I have just recently come back to the hobby after a 30 year or so layoff and my skills will not do it justice yet.  I will start a WIP thread when I do get started.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks again for all the info and help! One more question (but there may be more) - did all the 362nd FG P-47's have the red tip and black stripe on the vertical stabilizer?? I've found photos of 379th FS Thunderbolts that did have the red tip VS, but none of the 378th. Just trying to confirm that small detail so I can make this build as accurate as possible. I'll post some pics tonight or tomorrow . . . it's coming along great. Just finished painting with shades of Alclad aluminum (standard, white, and dark). Front cowl is painted with the cobalt blue band, and the OD anti-glare panel is also painted. Thanks again for all the help.

 

Jim

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For example - here is a 379th P-47D with the distinctive yellow cowl band, and red tip vertical stab. 

 

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/republic_p47d/P47D_USA_379FS_1.jpg

 

From research it appears that the 377th had the distinctive red cowl band, and the red tip vertical stab as well. Eagle Strike did some decals years ago with a 377th bird and it showed the a red tip vert. stab. Here's a nice model that was completed using those decals.

 

http://imodeler.com/2014/09/p-47d-thunderbolt-by-tamiya-in-148-scale/

 

However, I can't seem to find any references to 378th Thunderbolts - beyond the blue cowl band. Is it safe to assume that they too had the red vert. stab tip with black stripe below?

 

Thanks,

 

Jim

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Yes, it is safe. Red tails were group markings. Well, safe enough ;).

Yet, the answer to the question:

did all the 362nd FG P-47's have the red tip and black stripe on the vertical stabilizer??

is no they didn't. It was impossible for the operating squadron to paint all the aircraft in complete group and squadron markings. When You think of all additional artwork with nosearts going on, and the skipper's bird with all this three colour checker board that had to be finished, You will easily see the point.

More seriously, new aircraft entered, old aircraft got damaged or lost. The new ones were to serve most of all and the markings should have been applied when possible. So  there were fully decorated planes beside others with only basic markings on. Not to forget the older planes carrying original ETO white stripe markings over OD/NG camouflage, still in service.

If the confusion was not big enough, there is  this pic of 378th Bubbletop taking off with OD/NG Razorback in pair. The tail has the black stripe all right, but there is another NMF stripe of the same size over it and only the tip is painted red.

Edited by greatgonzo
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