F6F-3 Hellcat (another question)

[Ken from NJ]

Another question I'd like to ask:

 

Got some beautiful Techmod decals for my plane.  And I see some color callouts that got my attention.

 

For the USN tri-color scheme, the decal sheet color suggests Non-Spec Sea Blue (flat) for the fuselage topside BUT Non-Spec Sea Blue (semi-gloss) for the wing and horizontal stab topsides.  

 

I've been building and painting models for MANY years and I've built loads of US WWII Navy planes.  But this is the first time I've come across the topside blue being both flat and semi-gloss.

 

Is this old news I've missed?  New news I've missed?  In any event it's interesting.

 

 

Ken

 

 

[11bee]

Never heard of such a combo, I always though only flat was used but I'm not a SME.   If you don't get an answer here (this forum is somewhat dead), post over on LSP, they have some pretty knowledgeable and responsive folks. 

[Spruemeister]

Honestly, if you just do it with one Sea Blue paint hardly anyone will ever know or even care. The vast majority of models today are built and painted this way.   BUT, to be technically correct there were two different paints.  Actual different shades, not just different finishes.  Uber researcher Dana Bell has covered this in his books and his online posts on various forums such as Hyperscale if you care to search sometime.  His explainations will be far better than I can do here.  I grumbled internally about it not being accurate for a long time, but eventually gave up and conceded it after seeing his presentation with original color plates at this past Nationals in Omaha.  Still, its way easier and more practical to just use one shade of Sea Blue on the upper surfaces.

 

Rick L.

[Ken from NJ]

Thank you for your responses, 11bee and Spruemeister.

 

I've gone from a happy modeler in the past to an unhappy accuracy fanatic back to a happy modeler.  I always  LIKE to be accurate but for my own pleasure.  I have lost interest in posting much (especially pics after a particularly underwhelming response to a project I completed and posted).  But I DO enjoy interacting with like-minded modelers, even if it's just to point out something I find unique or to hear another point of view.

 

Thanks again, guys.

 

Ken

 

 

P.S.  It will be flat Non-Spec Sea Blue

[seawinder]

The best way to see the different shades is the wing leading edge, especially on a plane with a somewhat faded paint job: The wing upper surface was painted Semigloss Sea Blue, while the leading edge was Non Specular Sea Blue, which appears slightly, but definitely, lighter. On the last model I built with the 4-color scheme (an Avenger), I mixed a small amount of Light Gull Gray with the paint I was using for the Sea Blue to make a slightly lighter/grayer version for the NSSB areas. Doesn't take much gray to achieve the difference -- if one simply compares the fuselage to the upper wing, the contrast is virtually nonexistent.  

[Joel_W]

  My go to source for colors is the Swedish IPMS color spreadsheets. they list the top of the wings as Non-Specular Sea Blue  fs 25042, while the top of the fuselage as Semi Gloss Sea Blue fs 35042.  The 1st digit stand for the finish of the color:

1-gloss

2-semi gloss

3- matt 

 

 The rest of the fs numbers are identical, which means that the actual color is the same, and since the 2nd digit is a 5 which represents the Blue spectrum, the gloss finish would indeed seem to be a darker shade, but in reality it's not.  

 

  I've known Dana for years through emails, and pms, and he is truly a living legend, but in this respect his interpretation of color intensity is due to the finish, not the color itself. 

 

Joel

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2017 by Joel_W

[Joe Hegedus]

11 hours ago, Joel_W said:

  My go to source for colors is the Swedish IPMS color spreadsheets. they list the top of the wings as Non-Specular Sea Blue  fs 25042, while the top of the fuselage as Semi Gloss Sea Blue fs 35042.  The 1st digit stand for the finish of the color:

1-gloss

2-semi gloss

3- matt 

 

 The rest of the fs numbers are identical, which means that the actual color is the same, and since the 2nd digit is a 5 which represents the Blue spectrum, the gloss finish would indeed seem to be a darker shade, but in reality it's not.  

 

  I've known Dana for years through emails, and pms, and he is truly a living legend, but in this respect his interpretation of color intensity is due to the finish, not the color itself. 

 

Joel

 

 

 

Except the X5042 are modern colors; not necessarily the same as the ANA colors they replaced.  The ANA colors are what you need to match, since the FS system didn't exist at the time.  I don't recall the ANA numbers, but GSB is NOT the same color as NS Sea Blue.  It's more than just gloss vs. flat, although the NS and SG Sea Blues in the ANA series were different sheens of the same color.

[Joel_W]

3 hours ago, Joe Hegedus said:

Except the X5042 are modern colors; not necessarily the same as the ANA colors they replaced.  The ANA colors are what you need to match, since the FS system didn't exist at the time.  I don't recall the ANA numbers, but GSB is NOT the same color as NS Sea Blue.  It's more than just gloss vs. flat, although the NS and SG Sea Blues in the ANA series were different sheens of the same color.

Joe,

   The numbers were ANA 606 & ANA 607.  It's been my understanding that the so slight variation of color intensity was due to one being a glossy finish while the other a Matt finish. Of course the debate will go on forever as there is no one left from that era that has 1st hand knowledge.   In this case I would think that close enough is good enough, especially if one does even the slightest of weathering.

Joel

[MacStingy]

What if the wings were polished or waxed to give better laminar performance? That would make them semi gloss.

not any kind of expert, just the first thought I had.

[Joe Hegedus]

1 hour ago, MacStingy said:

What if the wings were polished or waxed to give better laminar performance? That would make them semi gloss.

not any kind of expert, just the first thought I had.

The painting spec for the mid-war "three-tone" scheme specified semi-gloss on the upper wings, and NS on the upper fuselage and leading edges.  The 3-tone scheme was actually a 4-color scheme.

[seawinder]

18 hours ago, Joel_W said:

  My go to source for colors is the Swedish IPMS color spreadsheets. they list the top of the wings as Non-Specular Sea Blue  fs 25042, while the top of the fuselage as Semi Gloss Sea Blue fs 35042.  The 1st digit stand for the finish of the color:

1-gloss

2-semi gloss

3- matt 

 

 The rest of the fs numbers are identical, which means that the actual color is the same, and since the 2nd digit is a 5 which represents the Blue spectrum, the gloss finish would indeed seem to be a darker shade, but in reality it's not.  

 

  I've known Dana for years through emails, and pms, and he is truly a living legend, but in this respect his interpretation of color intensity is due to the finish, not the color itself. 

 

Joel

 

 

 

Even assuming X5042 is an accurate approximation of either shade of Sea Blue, you've got the initial numbers backward in your first paragraph. In any case, if you look at period photos of planes in the 4-color scheme, even ones where weathering has caused the Semigloss and Non Specular to have the same degree of gloss/flatness, you can see the tonal difference between the leading edges and the rest of the upper wing surface. I'm pretty sure Dana Bell has written that the two paints, besides having slightly different tints when fresh, weathered differently, with the Non Specular taking on a bit more grayness.

[Joel_W]

1 hour ago, seawinder said:

Even assuming X5042 is an accurate approximation of either shade of Sea Blue, you've got the initial numbers backward in your first paragraph. In any case, if you look at period photos of planes in the 4-color scheme, even ones where weathering has caused the Semigloss and Non Specular to have the same degree of gloss/flatness, you can see the tonal difference between the leading edges and the rest of the upper wing surface. I'm pretty sure Dana Bell has written that the two paints, besides having slightly different tints when fresh, weathered differently, with the Non Specular taking on a bit more grayness.

Seawinder,

   Sorry, but I have the number system correct. Here's the official explanation of the number system at the end of my post. 

   

   As for the color schemes of USN aircraft from before entry into the war till the end, never had a 4 color scheme unless Joe was referring to  what is commonly known as the tri color scheme.

 

   Not sure why you're comparing the beating a leading edge paint would receive compared to any other part of the aircraft. Naturally it showed the most amount of weathering and fading no matter what the color may have been. 

  

   As food for thought, why would the ever so slightly different shades of Sea Blue be used in Pacific combat theater?

 

Joel

 

Federal Standard 595 Paint Spec A PDF of the textual part of the Federal Standard 595B can be downloaded here. The colors in the Federal Standard set have no official names, just five-digit numbers. Any names given below are generic. The first figure can be 1,2 or 3 and indicates the level of sheen: 1 = gloss 2 = semi gloss 3 = matt The second figure of the code indicates a general color classification group;   0 = Brown 5 = Blue   1 = Red 6 = Grey   2 = Orange 7 = Other (white, black, violet, metallic)   3 = Yellow 8 = Fluorescent   4 = Green

Edited September 25, 2017 by Joel_W

[seawinder]

Joel:

As you stated in your post, FS 2XXXX is semigloss; 3XXXX is flat. But you give 25042 as Non Specular (aka flat) and 35042 as semigloss, which is backwards.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, check out some period photos -- you can definitely make out a difference between the leading edges and the rest of the wings.

 

BTW, what's the ginormous blank space in your post above?

[Joel_W]

15 hours ago, seawinder said:

Joel:

As you stated in your post, FS 2XXXX is semigloss; 3XXXX is flat. But you give 25042 as Non Specular (aka flat) and 35042 as semigloss, which is backwards.

 

At the risk of repeating myself, check out some period photos -- you can definitely make out a difference between the leading edges and the rest of the wings.

 

BTW, what's the ginormous blank space in your post above?

   Seawinder,

    Those are the FS stated colors on the IPMS Swedish site, and the colors that I plan on using for  my current F6F-3 build.

Joel

[Ken from NJ]

Like I said a couple of days ago:

 

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 1:28 PM, Ken from NJ said:

But I DO enjoy interacting with like-minded modelers, even if it's just to point out something I find unique or to hear another point of view.

 Glad to see this paint color query was discussed and several of us learned something or had something confirmed.

 

[11bee]

2 hours ago, Ken from NJ said:

Like I said a couple of days ago:

 

 Glad to see this paint color query was discussed and several of us learned something or had something confirmed.

 

Agreed.   Learned something new, that’s always a nice thing. 

[seawinder]

11 hours ago, Joel_W said:

   Seawinder,

    Those are the FS stated colors on the IPMS Swedish site, and the colors that I plan on using for  my current F6F-3 build.

Joel

I just went to the IPMS Sweden color chart. They state: Semigloss Sea Blue: FS 25042; Non Specular Sea Blue: FS 35042 (35045). No matter -- go for it, and hopefully it'll be an enjoyable build and a satisfying result.

 

FWIW, there's an informative article on TBF painting directives with several photos showing the treatment of the leading edges here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/avengertricolorschemekw_1.htm

[Ken from NJ]

5 hours ago, seawinder said:

FWIW, there's an informative article on TBF painting directives with several photos showing the treatment of the leading edges here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/avengertricolorschemekw_1.htm

 

... and right into my "U.S. aircraft info" folder!

 

And again, after all these years of WWII model building, I honestly can not remember ever seeing this paint info.  Thanks to all!

 

[Joel_W]

12 hours ago, seawinder said:

I just went to the IPMS Sweden color chart. They state: Semigloss Sea Blue: FS 25042; Non Specular Sea Blue: FS 35042 (35045). No matter -- go for it, and hopefully it'll be an enjoyable build and a satisfying result.

 

FWIW, there's an informative article on TBF painting directives with several photos showing the treatment of the leading edges here:

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/avengertricolorschemekw_1.htm

Seawinder,

   Thanks for the link. 

  This is the 1st time that I've seen the 4 color camo paint scheme that Grumman's applied to the Avengers and the explanation as to why.  I'll have to see if I can document it as the proper scheme for my F6F-3 Hellcat build. 

Joel