Joel_W Posted November 16, 2017 Author Share Posted November 16, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, Peterpools said: JA Wings look so much better both with the filter being applied and then shooting the images correctly. What's the key words in photography: it’s all about the light📷 The dark blue on the fuselage looks a bit darker then the wings as the marbling seems to be not as much. Once the decals: stars and bars are on, so much of the fuselage paint will be under them, I would leave things as they are. Keep ‘em coming Peter Bro, Thanks for stopping by and thanks for posting your comments. I purposely made the top of the wings slightly lighter then the sides of the fuselage as that's the way the paint weathered and faded from the South Pacific elements, at least that's how I see it in those pictures I sent you. Once the final weathering after decaling takes place, the differences will be lease noticeable, but the effect should be a little greater. For me the real challenge is not to go so far with the weathering as to end up with a model that just looks beat to death. So I'm trying to refine my efforts so that there is a controlled amount of weathering, yet in scale still looks like a replica display piece. Joel The Other Bro Edited November 16, 2017 by Joel_W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tosouthern66 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Joel Sweet build so far! Can't wait for the finished product! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dnl42 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Joel, That's one fine looking cat. You're getting some good effects with the weathering! I can't seem to get that right, so I have to claim my models just recently got in-theater... -- dnl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 8 hours ago, tosouthern66 said: Joel Sweet build so far! Can't wait for the finished product! Thanks so much for those more then kind words. It greatly appreciated. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 3 hours ago, dnl42 said: Joel, That's one fine looking cat. You're getting some good effects with the weathering! I can't seem to get that right, so I have to claim my models just recently got in-theater... -- dnl dnl, Thank you sir for those comments. It's much appreciated. As for you not being able to get the right effect, your work is darn good. For a more weathered or worn look, just start off with black basing and use thin layers of color. less is more and controllable. Even using various colors for black basing will greatly change the overall look of the camo scheme. this is the technique I'm going to be using on my next WWII build. But I'm taking it one step further, and that's working stress areas like leading edges with more lighter color tones then the rest of the wing. Not sure how this will all work out, but in theory, it should result in the effects I'm looking for. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Enrywar67 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 hi.....this remember me something!!Good work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Keep charging with your build.....trying to get an accurate mid WWII carrier finish is tough. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Enrywar67 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) Joel...check your references about the trim tab:those are wrong for an f3f:on right wing you'ld delete the movable trim and replace with a fixed one.....the left wing is correct ;) Edited November 19, 2017 by Enrywar67 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Wow, Collin, that's a stunner! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 19, 2017 Author Share Posted November 19, 2017 Colin, Now that F6F-3 is really quite impressive. Right now I'm looking for something right in between your start and finish pictures. But then again I never really know till I actually start the weathering process. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tosouthern66 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Outstanding Build! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 7 hours ago, Joel_W said: Colin, Now that F6F-3 is really quite impressive. Right now I'm looking for something right in between your start and finish pictures. But then again I never really know till I actually start the weathering process. Joel Believe it or not I used armor filter colors airbrushed to bring the tri-scheme together. It was touch and go for me as I experimented but I think it worked. I used panel line colors very close to the aircraft colors to ensure the panels don't stand out too much. I had a lot of reference photos on my bench trying to find the right weathering mojo. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Collin said: ... I used panel line colors very close to the aircraft colors to ensure the panels don't stand out too much. Can you elaborate more about your panel lines, please? Does that mean you used the airframe color but just tinted a bit darker by adding some black? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 hours ago, crackerjazz said: Can you elaborate more about your panel lines, please? Does that mean you used the airframe color but just tinted a bit darker by adding some black? Check out my comments and photos before PB kills my pictures: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/292653-148-f6f-3-hellcat-on-the-hunt/&tab=comments#comment-2798829 PM me if you have more questions. Cheers Collin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 Hi Collin, saved, thanks! Sorry for the derail, Joel -- that Hellcat was too pretty : ) Hey, now I know where "Tomcat" came from -- Grumman seemed to have a thing for cats. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 Colin, Enrywar67, & crackerjazz, These posts with pictures are just fine, as they both are dead on subject wise, illustrate valuable weathering techniques, and a correction to the kit that I missed. So thanks guys for taking the time to do so. As far as weathering goes, I've been a disciple of the Tamiya black panel line wash as it's my 1st step in whatever process or processes of weathering I'm attempting. So if I go lighter with washes such as gray, or dust, or a light shade of the base color, it should also lighten up the panel line wash, although I never really gave that any real thought. I do have one concern about varying it by base color, and as it bases from Sea blue to Intermediate blue, in real life would the black change to a darkish Gray? I'll have to really take a good hard look at my ref pictures. Enrywar67 brought up the trim tab issue, and that's another detail I just didn't look at. I'm going to try and make one as the stock kit has none that I can attach without messing up the paint and sealer. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusNut Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) Joel, et al., I have a question for you guys about weathering aircraft, especially WWII subjects. Would carrier based aircraft be dusty, so to speak? It would seem to me that would not be the case, but i am not really sure. Being on submarines, we did not see a whole lot of dust, or at least dirt dust. Lots of oils and greases and fluids, but not much dust. What are your opinions on that? Edited November 20, 2017 by JesusNut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, JesusNut said: Joel, et al., I have a question for you guys about weathering aircraft, especially WWII subjects. Would carrier based aircraft be dusty, so to speak? It would seem to me that would not be the case, but i am not really sure. Being on submarines, we did not see a whole lot of dust, or at least dirt dust. Lots of oils and greases and fluids, but not much dust. What are your opinions on that? Jesus Nut, For the most part no. As long as they didn't land on an Island there just isn't any dust nor dirt out at sea. All the wear, fading of the paint is from the sun, sea air, and sea water. The stains are either from the crews or leaks from the aircraft itself. As I said that's for non- land based aircraft, but the Corsairs spent most of their operational life being flown by the Marines off of one Island after another, as they were for some time more then a handful trying to land them on a carrier deck. So they suffered from the same conditions minus the salt water, plus they had to contend with coral dust, and sand beating the paint to death. Hence, the land based aircraft looked worse off then the carrier based aircraft for a similar period of time. Joel Edited November 20, 2017 by Joel_W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusNut Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 1 hour ago, Joel_W said: Jesus Nut, For the most part no. As long as they didn't land on an Island there just isn't any dust nor dirt out at sea. All the wear, fading of the paint is from the sun, sea air, and sea water. The stains are either from the crews or leaks from the aircraft itself. As I said that's for non- land based aircraft, but the Corsairs spent most of their operational life being flown by the Marines off of one Island after another, as they were for some time more then a handful trying to land them on a carrier deck. So they suffered from the same conditions minus the salt water, plus they had to contend with coral dust, and sand beating the paint to death. Hence, the land based aircraft looked worse off then the carrier based aircraft for a similar period of time. Joel That's kind of what I was thinking after reading the above posts about the lighter panel line washes above. Of course, I was assuming yours is carrier based and may have been a bad assumption on my part since I did not go back and read the beginning of this thread to double check. I was also asking because of my TBM-3 in progress will be carrier based. I am not sure yet if I am going with the Atlantic scheme or the Tri- color camo you are doing. It would seem to me that the panel lines would be dark gray to black based on this though. Just my opinion based on nothing more than conjecture. Another thing I remember well from my time in the Navy, albeit peace time and not war time, is that we placed a high premium on cleanliness. We were always wiping oils off surfaces. I do not mean to say that carrier based aircraft did not leak oils, because of course they did and radial engines were terrible for that. I just remember cleaning, A LOT!!! Hahahaha! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 4 minutes ago, JesusNut said: That's kind of what I was thinking after reading the above posts about the lighter panel line washes above. Of course, I was assuming yours is carrier based and may have been a bad assumption on my part since I did not go back and read the beginning of this thread to double check. I was also asking because of my TBM-3 in progress will be carrier based. I am not sure yet if I am going with the Atlantic scheme or the Tri- color camo you are doing. It would seem to me that the panel lines would be dark gray to black based on this though. Just my opinion based on nothing more than conjecture. Another thing I remember well from my time in the Navy, albeit peace time and not war time, is that we placed a high premium on cleanliness. We were always wiping oils off surfaces. I do not mean to say that carrier based aircraft did not leak oils, because of course they did and radial engines were terrible for that. I just remember cleaning, A LOT!!! Hahahaha! Tom, My F6F-3 is carrier based, and tri colored scheme. I also did my Avenger years ago in the Atlantic two tone Gray scheme. Still never fixed the antenna that I used thread for instead of stretched sprue for some reason I can't remember. Notice that I cut open the cowl panel to view the engine detailing. Looking at it now, it's not the greatest by far. My point about panel lines is that it isn't necessarily dirt, grease, or grime, it's the lack of direct light that causes those areas to be in some level of shade/darkness. So as you move across the recessed lines between panels the intensity varies, and at one point it should almost disappear. We as modelers tend to model as though every recessed line is at the same angle to the light source which is directional from the sun, as well actually facing the sun. In real life it's just not that way. At least not like we tend to model. And I'm near the top of that list as well. I'm trying to vary the effects, but I haven't come close to real life duplication. Joel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JesusNut Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, Joel_W said: Tom, My F6F-3 is carrier based, and tri colored scheme. I also did my Avenger years ago in the Atlantic two tone Gray scheme. Still never fixed the antenna that I used thread for instead of stretched sprue for some reason I can't remember. Notice that I cut open the cowl panel to view the engine detailing. Looking at it now, it's not the greatest by far. My point about panel lines is that it isn't necessarily dirt, grease, or grime, it's the lack of direct light that causes those areas to be in some level of shade/darkness. So as you move across the recessed lines between panels the intensity varies, and at one point it should almost disappear. We as modelers tend to model as though every recessed line is at the same angle to the light source which is directional from the sun, as well actually facing the sun. In real life it's just not that way. At least not like we tend to model. And I'm near the top of that list as well. I'm trying to vary the effects, but I haven't come close to real life duplication. Joel That looks pretty good to me Joel. And I like that scheme and am leaning towards it myself. I just picked up a set of decals at the LHS that has a plane in that scheme on it. With the exception of the decals I am going strictly OOB and more or less as a learning experience. Do you have a WIP anywhere that I can peruse? I don't want to hi-jack your Hellcat thread. Back to the panel lines, that is good info. I did not really think of it like that. I do know that the models I see with the very pronounced panel lines do not not look real to me. I don't want to bash anyone that does it that way, it's just not for me. I always thought of them as where oils and dirt and grease collect as the aircraft/vehicle "weathers" and ages. Thanks for pointing that out and it will give me something to strive for as I go forward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Collin Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Type in the search bar "collin" "wildcat" and you will see two recent examples of the same techniques I used on my Hellcat on an early Pacific and ASW Atlantic scheme F4F kit. I tried to keep the overall panel line effect just to the larger control surfaces and engine area since that is where most dirt/grime will accumulate. These kits also have a filter airbrushed on them to help unify the colors. All painting completed with base colors shot over a black base coat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peterpools Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Collin Brilliant and very realistic weathered finish. I’m not a weathering guy and my brother and I go at it all the time - best part of the hobby for us. Simply spot on and looks so good👍 Peter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Peterpools Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 JA Nice progress and re- work on the Hellcat’s weathering. The uppers and fuselage sides look so much better in the flesh (the diner Sunday morning) as the contrast in the weathering between colors and shades is much more gradual and does flow between them. The undersides still seem to be too contrasty and a bit splotchy. The way to get around the ‘stark white’ look is not to use White White. Model Air makes a beautiful white gray and MRP plus Mr Color ( I’m sure other companies as well) offer insignia white which is a warmer white when compared to lets say Tamiya White which is stark white. I know back in WWII there were no FS numbered colors but when taking scale effect into account, insignia white looks and works much better. Keep ‘em coming👍 Bro Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joel_W Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, JesusNut said: That looks pretty good to me Joel. And I like that scheme and am leaning towards it myself. I just picked up a set of decals at the LHS that has a plane in that scheme on it. With the exception of the decals I am going strictly OOB and more or less as a learning experience. Do you have a WIP anywhere that I can peruse? I don't want to hi-jack your Hellcat thread. Back to the panel lines, that is good info. I did not really think of it like that. I do know that the models I see with the very pronounced panel lines do not not look real to me. I don't want to bash anyone that does it that way, it's just not for me. I always thought of them as where oils and dirt and grease collect as the aircraft/vehicle "weathers" and ages. Thanks for pointing that out and it will give me something to strive for as I go forward. Tom, Thanks for the thumbs up on my Avenger. I built it when I joined my 1st aircraft modeling sites about 7 years ago. Before that I was building cars ( could never get a decent gloss finish), then moved to armor for a few years. There is no build thread, and this is the only picture I can find. although I still have the model, and I'm planning on refurb'ing it with a proper wire antenna, and I believe I'm missing one small door support bracket for the bomb bay that I can scratch out these days, hence, the Avenger kind of faces the back of the display Today the trend is towards pronounced panel lines with black washes, hence the popularity of Tamiya's black panel line wash. This is on top of pre-shading which just makes it worse. No aircraft weathers where each panel is lighter only in the middle and darker around all 4 sides. Some do, some a little, some all of it, and some none of it. Research photos are your best guides. To duplicate that is very difficult, and few come close. Personally and honestly, I'm trying but way to symmetrical. I just can't help myself when I start the weathering process. We model from a universal light source and constantly view the model from all angles and directions, so the truth is that we can never duplicate reality to such a degree. But we can restrain what we do. One thing I've been doing little by little is applying the panel line washes right after the decal sealing stage. Now I start whatever weathering I want to do, then finish up with air brushed filters, then a overall wash . this will lighten up the panel lines but not so much the demarcation lines of the flying surfaces as they are wider and deeper, and you can always add a little more black pin wash if needed. Hopefully, the final wash or two will blend and soften all the colors to look as realistic as I can get it. Joel Edited November 21, 2017 by Joel_W Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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