Jump to content

ZM F-4 Phantom, Tamiya F-14, comparisons and observations


Recommended Posts

Hello all

 

Last Thursday my ZM F-4S arrived and this evening I had a first go on it...just could not just put it on the pile, I had to get a feeling for it. Last time that happened was about a year ago when the Tamiya Tomcat arrived at the house. It's now in the final decaling stage and awaiting final assembly. I hope to have it fully up by Christmas...I build slow :-(

A couple of observations I wanted to share/discuss with you all that both kist have in commen more or less.

I started on the ZM cockpit which is really super nice. I have heard it does not need to be replaced with Resin. I agree to about 75%...and here comes the first comparison to the Tamiya Tomcat. The seats are ok but not up to the rest of the kit. Why do we not get seat belts on both kits? I do not mean the decal things but classic, nicely molded seat belts? Those kits are very well made and also very expensive! Would it really be asked too much to get seats and PE belts AND a set with molded on seat belts? In the Phantom I will use Quickboost seats, very nice product with fine details and all in one go...for the PE haters like me. Is it possible that the modern way of CAD directly to cutting the molds is the reason why we do not get seat belts molded on any more? Same btw goes for the cables behind the RIO instrument panel. Nothing there...! Remember the old Monogram jets...done from a master model and in molds cut by skilled tool makers? There we had beautiful seats with belts, cables and other irregulary shaped details and even break hoses on the LG legs.

On the Tomcat kit I also wonder why the classic, toy like, cockpit tub design was choosen? Again, those kits are no toys, far too expensive for that. A breakdown like on the ZM Phantom would have easily made it possible to have the side walls detailed out.

Very good on the Tomcat is the way the fwd windshield was designed...with a piece of fuselage around it so that no glue marks can get on the windows. Unfortuantely ZM has missed this feature completely and instead has a injection stub to be cut and the glass part, then to be glued on without a frame directly at the glass! A royal PITA...

All in all both kist are very nice, currently the best in their field...but with room for improvement! I think the high price asked for them is not justified...but there are enough (too many) folks like my self who still buy them.

 

Sorry for the rant...

 

cheers

Uwe

 

PS: I still can see the Phnatom fuselage bug...just not sure if/how to fix it! I will live with it for now ;-) Best solution so far I have seen is the -B conversion with the multi colored "Supesonic Can Opener" feathers that cover this region up very nicely.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good grief ... your glass really is 1/4 full ... almost. You had to resurrect the "Phantom fuselage bug"??

 

My ZM Phantom kit is magnificent, including the fit!!! :thumbsup:

 

Gene K

 

 

Edited by Gene K
Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

 

The fit is good...no question about it after one has cleaned the parts up. And that is a lot of work since ZM decided to have the sprue attachment point always from two levels on the parts...around a corner. Sorry, can't describe it better. Still...Tamiya fits better!

A thing to note on the -S are the slats. Those are modeled in the extended position and the instructions do not mention that when on the ground they should be retracted (99% of the time). A nice feature would be the take off config...if not changing the elevator attachement pieces (A21+A22) would require major sugery on the rear fuselage. They should have left this area open and just provide the inserts.  Very nice are the intake ducts, the fit is excellent and the seam very small...easy to fix with Mr.Surfacer and a sanding stick. Yes, a slide molded part would have been better but if assempled carfully it will turn out nicely.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, anj4de said:

 

The fit is good...no question about it after one has cleaned the parts up. And that is a lot of work since ZM decided to have the sprue attachment point always from two levels on the parts...around a corner. Sorry, can't describe it better. Still...Tamiya fits better!

A thing to note on the -S are the slats. Those are modeled in the extended position and the instructions do not mention that when on the ground they should be retracted (99% of the time). A nice feature would be the take off config...if not changing the elevator attachement pieces (A21+A22) would require major sugery on the rear fuselage. They should have left this area open and just provide the inserts.  Very nice are the intake ducts, the fit is excellent and the seam very small...easy to fix with Mr.Surfacer and a sanding stick. Yes, a slide molded part would have been better but if assempled carfully it will turn out nicely.  

Re the slats being retracted 99% of the time when the plane is on the ground, is true of slat-winged F-4s in general?

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

Slowly working along...I have other stuff on the bench as well...I have today tried to use the cockpit decals...and somehow to my eye they look strange. I am not the greatest on painting cockpits...but I guess here I will have to do it. The decals do not look nice and they do not settle down well over the very nice 3D details. I also found out ZM has a PE set for the -J/S made by Eduard but that one seems to be unavailable in Europe...or elsewhere. For the price asked for the kit they could have thrown it in...along with seat belts! :-(

 

cheers

Uwe

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you answered your own question. You hate PE. Many builders do. Some hate resin and love PE. Some crucified Tamiya's F-14 for not offering dropped slats. Model companies have to make a profit. They have a price point they have to hit. Toward the end of design as they input the budget for every feature they'd like to provide, something's gotta give. They know they won't make everybody happy, so they drop some features knowing the aftermarket will provide the details they don't.  That's my guess, anyway, and I guess that's where your slat options and seat belts went. Price? Back when I started, I considered $40 for a model so close to criminal as to be indistinguishable. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

PE for the instrument panels is fine if it is done the Eduard way of layering...I have had good results with this. For seat belts I prefere molded one ones...like on the Quickboost seats. I guess I will try painting then...just gets more difficult the older I get (eyes) ;-)

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, anj4de said:

I have today tried to use the cockpit decals...and somehow to my eye they look strange ... . The decals do not look nice and they do not settle down well over the very nice 3D details. ... For the price asked for the kit they could have thrown it [PE] in...along with seat belts! :-(

 

Hopefully you'll find something good about the kit :rolleyes:.

 

Gene K

Link to post
Share on other sites

You again...! LOL

 

I found plenty of good stuff on that kit...all of it was mentioned before by lots of other guys...like you. Just noone ever mentions the things that can/should be there but are not! If that was a 35EUR kit I would make saltos backwards and applaud with my feet while in the air...but at over 80EUR I expect better! The kit is, so far, the best 48scale Phantom, no doubt, but it still has it's weak points. Most of them are not design related but due to engineering short cuts of simply greed I guess. Having said that...will I buy a second one? Probably once they release a late -E or even an -F. This is called "constructive criticism" where as you are more in the "worship" group I guess! 

 

Uwe

Edited by anj4de
Link to post
Share on other sites

I’ve built two ZM kits of the J, I have an S awaiting the bench as well. I love the ZM kit and think its the best F-4 on the market. I do agree the cockpit lacks sidewall and sill detail and the seats  are good but not great in accuracy and detail aside from the harness issue.  And while I’m bellyaching, I too experinced the bug bear with solvent resistent decals. Whats the fix? I used solvaset and they stayed stiff as a board. I also didnt know the S slats are deployed.Is there a fix to eassily streamline them? I dread fooling with that. These nit noys still dont diminish how great that model is and all the work the “old man” put in to it. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The "fix" for the slats is easy...just cut off the liitle "legs" coming out of the parts M10 - M12. Glue the slats right onto the wing. For the outer panel just glue on the slats as said but not in a too steep angle.

 

F4Sstrap.jpg

 

I have meanwhile managed to get the decals soft...4-5 times soacking in Micro Sol. Will post a picture tomorrow on how it looks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason they are molded in the extended position is it gives you the option to extend the nose gear leg to have the aircraft fully configured for take off.

ZM also have a catapult dio base available for it.

The rear fuselage has been discussed to death with the only thing gained being that even "if" it is not perfect the rear fuselage is still more accurate than ANY other Phantom kit available.

Got my C kits last week in Osaka.

More Zoukie love!

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dehowie said:

The reason they are molded in the extended position is it gives you the option to extend the nose gear leg to have the aircraft fully configured for take off.

ZM also have a catapult dio base available for it.

The rear fuselage has been discussed to death with the only thing gained being that even "if" it is not perfect the rear fuselage is still more accurate than ANY other Phantom kit available.

Got my C kits last week in Osaka.

More Zoukie love!

 

 

I'll either do two or maybe even a third F4C. One will become an RF4C.  

gary

Link to post
Share on other sites

Morning all...

 

The -S Phantom is coming togther nicely...all in all good kit I would say. Now let a long nose follow, please and while you are at it...read and see what your competitor has done!!! Subject...AMK Kfir 1/48!  Way to go AMK..ZM, do you read?

 

thanks

Uwe

 

On 13.10.2017 at 4:49 PM, Sabre Freak said:

How different are the new fuselage parts?
Any chance the retooled fuselage parts will be available separately?

 

Hi, I don’t think so. The differences are only really small but there nonetheless. You would have to know what you’re looking for to really such that much of a difference but I will show you when I get the plastic myself.

We were told the fuselage was slightly wrong so we changed it.

 

Edited by anj4de
Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Craig Baldwin said:

It looks like you quoted that from somewhere, did you, and where?

AMK's FB page

 

Uwe: try to put yourself in the producer's shoes. Does the producer tool himself or does he outsource the tooling ? AMK (Agencia Comercial Hai Jie LDA) is of the first kind, I don't know about Zoukei Mura. Producers of the first type can retool relatively easily as long as the machines aren't used or scheduled to be used on other projects. Producers of the second type have to pay their subcontracting toolshop. When you have to pay, you evaluate the cost/benefit ratio: is it worth spending the money or not ? The problem is that the money spent in a retool won't be spent in the tooling phase of a future project. Being a kit producer isn't a high-profit business so producers need to be cautious on spending money.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Laurent said:

AMK's FB page

 

Uwe: try to put yourself in the producer's shoes. Does the producer tool himself or does he outsource the tooling ? AMK (Agencia Comercial Hai Jie LDA) is of the first kind, I don't know about Zoukei Mura. Producers of the first type can retool relatively easily as long as the machines aren't used or scheduled to be used on other projects. Producers of the second type have to pay their subcontracting toolshop. When you have to pay, you evaluate the cost/benefit ratio: is it worth spending the money or not ? The problem is that the money spent in a retool won't be spent in the tooling phase of a future project. Being a kit producer isn't a high-profit business so producers need to be cautious on spending money.

Hello Laurent

 

Thanks for the explanation. I just wanted to show that there are companies admitting to having made a mistake and are willing to correct it. Eduard is another one, remember their first 109G in 1/48? Now...lets see what happens when ZM really brings out a long nose? For the -S they already had a completely new wing done even though altering the -J wing with the slat parts and the re-enfocment would have been possible. I wonder if the hopefully all new -E/F fuselage will address the bug everybody knows of, but a lot just deny. All in all the ZM kit is very nice, the CAD work apart from that bug seemed to be spot on. If ZM does not produce the molds themselves and also outsources the casting then they obviously went for the lowest bidder with the results I experiance now. For example...large over cast bubbles directly on the ejection seat handles and that with an already too soft plastic... To ZM I will say...you are sellling yourself under value...fix the bug and change the caster and you will get the praise your design derserves.

 

cheers

Uwe

Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, anj4de said:

I just wanted to show that there are companies admitting to having made a mistake and are willing to correct it. Eduard is another one, remember their first 109G in 1/48?

It's the communication strategy sometimes used by producers that do their own toolings and Eduard is one of them. I can't help remembering that Vladimir Sulc said he'd fire the employee that would suggest to correct the MiG-21bis nose.

 

45 minutes ago, anj4de said:

I wonder if the hopefully all new -E/F fuselage will address the bug everybody knows of, but a lot just deny.

Perhaps.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Laurent
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Laurent said:

AMK's FB page

 

Uwe: try to put yourself in the producer's shoes. Does the producer tool himself or does he outsource the tooling ? AMK (Agencia Comercial Hai Jie LDA) is of the first kind, I don't know about Zoukei Mura. Producers of the first type can retool relatively easily as long as the machines aren't used or scheduled to be used on other projects. Producers of the second type have to pay their subcontracting toolshop. When you have to pay, you evaluate the cost/benefit ratio: is it worth spending the money or not ? The problem is that the money spent in a retool won't be spent in the tooling phase of a future project. Being a kit producer isn't a high-profit business so producers need to be cautious on spending money.

 

You got to evaluate it in both cases.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Laurent said:

It's the communication strategy sometimes used by producers that do their own toolings and Eduard is one of them. I can't help remembering that Vladimir Sulc said he'd fire the employee that would suggest to correct the MiG-21bis nose.

 

Perhaps.

 

 

 

 

I know of the MIG21 bis nose...anoying issue but there is a fix from Cold War Studios. Their MIG25 noses are also very cool! On the ZM Phantom it will be a lot more difficult to apply a fix...I have so far not seen anybody attempting it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...