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F-4 B/N Kits w/ Followup ?? about AM


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Looking for recommendations.  A neighbor of my family when I was 9-11 years old was a RIO in VF-151 on the USS Midway cruise to Vietnam April 72-Mar 73.  He was recently in town for a squadron reunion and I got to pick his brain on several things and heard lots of great stories.  I will eventually be building one of these aircraft.  According to the research I have done, they were B models on that cruise, then upgraded them to N's after their return.  I want to do this model in 1/48 scale and would like to know which kit you guys think would be the easiest to do OOB.  This does not mean I will only do OOB, but want to make it as easy as I can.  Thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to your responses.

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Easiest in 1/48 which still looks good is the Hasegawa raised panel lines but still easy. Monogram cost less . But I sometimes have issues with the clear parts. The other new guys cost more and are not easier.

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Tom,

  I built the Academy B when it 1st came out and loved the kit. Fit was perfect, nice level of detail, Cartograf decals with their own stencil sheet,  I've got their Rhino kit (Eduard) & their C in my stash. the ZM kits are very well detailed, but have a few fit issues especially if you're closing up a lot of the compartments. They're also twice the price, but not twice the bang for the buck. Are they technically better, to some degree yes.

Joel

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1 hour ago, JesusNut said:

Looking for recommendations.  A neighbor of my family when I was 9-11 years old was a RIO in VF-151 on the USS Midway cruise to Vietnam April 72-Mar 73.  He was recently in town for a squadron reunion and I got to pick his brain on several things and heard lots of great stories.  I will eventually be building one of these aircraft.  According to the research I have done, they were B models on that cruise, then upgraded them to N's after their return.  I want to do this model in 1/48 scale and would like to know which kit you guys think would be the easiest to do OOB.  This does not mean I will only do OOB, but want to make it as easy as I can.  Thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to your responses.

Jesus

 When you get it built I would like to see it. I was withe 151 1988 threw 1990 in the Ordie shop. Anything 151 I like!

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In 1/48 your two choices are Hasegawa and Academy.  The most noticeable feature of the B/N is the thin wing, and thin tires.

 

The Hasegawa kit is pretty easy to build, but it does have raised panel lines.  It is not currently in production, but it is easy to find on ebay.

 

 If you want engraved panel lines, you can build the Academy kit, which is very nice.  The other alternative is to use the Hasegawa J and the Royale Resin Thin wing conversion set.   However, once you have bought the resin, you could  have  purchased the Academy kit.  The Academy Thin wing phantom has been issued twice, as a "B" with sundowners markings, and as a B/N with three USMC markings options. I compared the plastic in the B and the B/N and they look identical. So, you can build an N from an original B boxing.   ZM has not yet released a B/N.  There is thread on this forum from a few months ago where ghatherly from GT resin converted a ZM J to a B, where he also states he is planning on a conversion set.

 

This sheet from Furball has a F-4B from vf-151 in 1973

 

hope it helps. 

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If ease of assembly is your chief motivator, I vote for Academy for these reasons:

1. One piece upper fuselage which means no seam or possibility of ruining all those fuel probe access panels

2. Seperate flight controls ease painting

3. Aft keel section and heat shields are one piece making that area easier to paint

As a bonus, surface detail is more pronounced on Academy, the cockpit detail is more complete and accurate, there are optional rhaw antennas, better a/b liners and a retractable boarding step.

Edited by BillS
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3 hours ago, Joel_W said:

Tom,

  I built the Academy B when it 1st came out and loved the kit. Fit was perfect, nice level of detail, Cartograf decals with their own stencil sheet,  I've got their Rhino kit (Eduard) & their C in my stash. the ZM kits are very well detailed, but have a few fit issues especially if you're closing up a lot of the compartments. They're also twice the price, but not twice the bang for the buck. Are they technically better, to some degree yes.

Joel

 

Thanks Joel.  The Academy kit seems to be readily available, and there appears to be quite a bit of AM available if I decide to go that route.

 

1 hour ago, Kurt H. said:

 

 

This sheet from Furball has a F-4B from vf-151 in 1973

 

 

 

Thanks Kurt.  The sheet appears to have the markings for the CAG bird and is definitely an option.  I would prefer to build one of the non-CAG aircraft, however, just for the sake of building one of the aircraft my former neighbor flew in.  I may still get the sheet though as I can use it as a pattern for the tail markings.

 

34 minutes ago, BillS said:

If ease of assembly is your chief motivator, I vote for Academy for these reasons:

1. One piece upper fuselage which means no seam or possibility of ruining all those fuel probe access panels

2. Seperate flight controls ease painting

3. Aft keel section and heat shields are one piece making that area easier to paint

As a bonus, surface detail is more pronounced on Academy, the cockpit detail is more complete and accurate, there are optional rhaw antennas, better a/b liners and a retractable boarding step.

 

Thanks Bill.  I stated ease of assembly as a contributing factor, but if you have a recommendation for another kit, I would be happy to listen to it.  Your reasons above seem to fit the bill for what I am looking for, however, I am always willing to listen to reason.  

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  • JesusNut changed the title to F-4 B/N Kits w/ Followup ?? about AM

For aftermarket for the Academy kit:

  • The air conditioning system scoops on the sides of the nose are too narrow and need to be replaced. Corrected scoops are available from Hypersonic, Steel Beach, and are included with XMM's intake set. 
  • The kit stabilators have the panel line that marks the break between the painted and natural metal sections in the wrong place. For the unslotted stabs, you can either fill and rescribe the panel line, or replace the stabs with a set from Hypersonic or Royale Resin. The slotted stabs can't be easily fixed, because the mounts that hold the extension that forms the slot are all wrong, so they should just be replaced with a set from Hypersonic. It sounds like you'll need the slotted stabs. A bonus with Hypersonic's stabs is they include photo etched parts to replace the pivot plates that you'll lose when you fill the seams where the upper and lower sections of the aft fuselage mate. 
  •  Hypersonic makes a beautiful canopy detail set for both the Hasegawa and Academy Phantoms. I consider this a must-have upgrade for my F-4 models. 
  • The cockpit is pretty good right out of the box. The only items that need to be addressed are the placement of the RIO's controller, which Academy has sticking straight out of the aft instrument panel, and the center section of the front instrument panel, which needs to be moved forward a little, so it isn't on the same plane as the two side panels. I bought a cheap True Details F-4 cockpit set and used the seats, side panels, and a couple of other items to dress up the kit cockpit. I didn't really like the kit seats. I think Aries makes a complete cockpit for the F-4B.
  • The intakes are not accurate. DMold makes some that drop in. I used XMM's and one dropped right in and the other took a little wrestling to install. 
  • Eduard's afterburner nozzles look okay, but aren't cheap. In my set, one nozzle was ~1mm larger in diameter than the other and the photo etched parts didn't fit the resin parts. I haven't tried Aries. GT Resin makes some nice afterburner nozzles for the Z-M F-4s, but I don't know how well they'll fit the Academy or Hasegawa kits.

I enjoyed building the Academy kit. It is a little more difficult to build than a Hasegawa F-4, only because of the parts breakdown, but the fit is generally excellent and the detail is good. The only problem ares I found were the forward fuselage, where the upper and lower halves meet, and the afore-mentioned aft fuselage parts, where you need to add a spreader to aid the fit. 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

Edited by Ben Brown
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12 hours ago, phantom said:

Easiest in 1/48 which still looks good is the Hasegawa raised panel lines but still easy. Monogram cost less . But I sometimes have issues with the clear parts. The other new guys cost more and are not easier.

 

I second phantom's opinion on this. Hasegawa is a easy build & it looks great...............sans raised panel lines but they don't bother me.

Academy is a nice kit ...............but the build isn't that easy. I think you need a few builds under your belt before you buy the Academy.

I'm not sure the value is with the Academy kit. I'm sure many disagree.

Dean

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2 hours ago, dnl42 said:

Furball has a nice cockpit detail set, which are decals that lay directly atop the raised Academy details. One set does both a B/N and a J/S.

 dnl42

  I just checked that link, and OMG!! what a solution! I love it. I have the Rhino and the C so I'll be buying two sets ASAP. Just hope that I don't forget as at my age I'm always forgetting something sooner then later.

Joel

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Hasegawa F-4J with the Royale Resin F-4B resin backdate set. The Academy kit can bite you with the installation on the metal section behind the burners to upper aft tail section & forward join with the nose section to the wing root. Or wait for a ZM F-4B.

 

S/F,

Masterguns

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1 hour ago, Gunny said:

Hasegawa F-4J with the Royale Resin F-4B resin backdate set. The Academy kit can bite you with the installation on the metal section behind the burners to upper aft tail section & forward join with the nose section to the wing root. Or wait for a ZM F-4B.

 

S/F,

Masterguns

 

:thumbsup: Agreed!

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15 hours ago, Ben Brown said:

For aftermarket for the Academy kit:

  • The air conditioning system scoops on the sides of the nose are too narrow and need to be replaced. Corrected scoops are available from Hypersonic, Steel Beach, and are included with XMM's intake set. 
  • The kit stabilators have the panel line that marks the break between the painted and natural metal sections in the wrong place. For the unslotted stabs, you can either fill and rescribe the panel line, or replace the stabs with a set from Hypersonic or Royale Resin. The slotted stabs can't be easily fixed, because the mounts that hold the extension that forms the slot are all wrong, so they should just be replaced with a set from Hypersonic. It sounds like you'll need the slotted stabs. A bonus with Hypersonic's stabs is they include photo etched parts to replace the pivot plates that you'll lose when you fill the seams where the upper and lower sections of the aft fuselage mate. 
  •  Hypersonic makes a beautiful canopy detail set for both the Hasegawa and Academy Phantoms. I consider this a must-have upgrade for my F-4 models. 
  • The cockpit is pretty good right out of the box. The only items that need to be addressed are the placement of the RIO's controller, which Academy has sticking straight out of the aft instrument panel, and the center section of the front instrument panel, which needs to be moved forward a little, so it isn't on the same plane as the two side panels. I bought a cheap True Details F-4 cockpit set and used the seats, side panels, and a couple of other items to dress up the kit cockpit. I didn't really like the kit seats. I think Aries makes a complete cockpit for the F-4B.
  • The intakes are not accurate. DMold makes some that drop in. I used XMM's and one dropped right in and the other took a little wrestling to install. 
  • Eduard's afterburner nozzles look okay, but aren't cheap. In my set, one nozzle was ~1mm larger in diameter than the other and the photo etched parts didn't fit the resin parts. I haven't tried Aries. GT Resin makes some nice afterburner nozzles for the Z-M F-4s, but I don't know how well they'll fit the Academy or Hasegawa kits.

I enjoyed building the Academy kit. It is a little more difficult to build than a Hasegawa F-4, only because of the parts breakdown, but the fit is generally excellent and the detail is good. The only problem ares I found were the forward fuselage, where the upper and lower halves meet, and the afore-mentioned aft fuselage parts, where you need to add a spreader to aid the fit. 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

 

Wow!  Great breakdown Ben!  I appreciate the information.  Quite a few things that need to be addressed to make it as accurate as possible.  With that being said, I am not worried about making the corrections as needed.  One question though.  What do you mean by the RIO's controller?  Unless you tell me different, I will assume you mean flight controls.  If that is true, the RIO I was speaking to told me the B/N's RIO controls were removed since they would not be able to land the aircraft on a carrier die to the nose up attitude that was required on approach and not being able to see.  Of course, I will never say never and it is possible that some aircraft still had them, just not in VF-151 at the time.

 

12 hours ago, airmechaja said:

 

I second phantom's opinion on this. Hasegawa is a easy build & it looks great...............sans raised panel lines but they don't bother me.

Academy is a nice kit ...............but the build isn't that easy. I think you need a few builds under your belt before you buy the Academy.

I'm not sure the value is with the Academy kit. I'm sure many disagree.

Dean

 

Thanks Dean!  That will be something I need to consider as I move forward.  While I have a couple of almost-dones under my belt, I have yet to complete a kit.  So far they have been "practice" kits.  I have a few kits in my stash that I can continue to practice on, so...

 

10 hours ago, dnl42 said:

Furball has a nice cockpit detail set, which are decals that lay directly atop the raised Academy details. One set does both a B/N and a J/S.

 

Thanks Dnl42!  I have bookmarked that link, as well as the others so that I can get that one if/when the time comes.

 

7 hours ago, Joel_W said:

Just hope that I don't forget as at my age I'm always forgetting something sooner then later.

Joel

 

You and me both brother!

 

6 hours ago, Gunny said:

Hasegawa F-4J with the Royale Resin F-4B resin backdate set. The Academy kit can bite you with the installation on the metal section behind the burners to upper aft tail section & forward join with the nose section to the wing root. Or wait for a ZM F-4B.

 

S/F,

Masterguns

 

4 hours ago, airmechaja said:

 

:thumbsup: Agreed!

 

Thanks Gunny and airmechaja!  More food for thought.  That resin kit looks nice!

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In the interest of covering all my bases, if anyone could also give me some ideas about aftermarket in 1/32 scale.  Or point me to some threads.  I tried searching, but that got tedious quickly.  I found a conversion set from GT Resin that will convert the Tamiya J to a B/N, however their website is short on images.  Has anyone bought that set and can you advise about fit etc.?  I am considering building this in 1/32 and presenting it to my old neighbor.  

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Hi JN,

 

The RIO's controller I was referring to is the little fire control joystick on the instrument panel. I can't recall what the correct term for it is. It's true that the Navy F-4s did not have flight controls in the rear cockpit.

 

I haven't seen GT Resin's F-4B conversion for the Tamiya kit, but his other products looked very nice when I checked them out at RDUCON last weekend. so far, I only own his 1/48 F-4J afterburners and APS-107a antennae for the 1/32 F-4D. I also would have jumped on his ARN-101-equipped F-4E conversion if I hadn't already spent way too much $$$ collecting everything I need from other sources for that project.:doh:

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

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6 minutes ago, Ben Brown said:

Hi JN,

 

The RIO's controller I was referring to is the little fire control joystick on the instrument panel. I can't recall what the correct term for it is. It's true that the Navy F-4s did not have flight controls in the rear cockpit.

 

I haven't seen GT Resin's F-4B conversion for the Tamiya kit, but his other products looked very nice when I checked them out at RDUCON last weekend. so far, I only own his 1/48 F-4J afterburners and APS-107a antennae for the 1/32 F-4D. I also would have jumped on his ARN-101-equipped F-4E conversion if I hadn't already spent way too much $$$ collecting everything I need from other sources for that project.:doh:

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

 

Thanks Ben.  I understand now.  I was able to spend several hours the other night talking to my old neighbor and learned a lot about the F-4 and ops.  He was a great source of info and is going to send me some more once he gets home and settled after his vacation.  The conversion kit is expensive, but it might be worth it if I go that route.  By the time I get all the parts in 1/48, I will be near that amount anyway.

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Hi,

 

Interesting thread, JN.

Coincidently, I also took a look at the GT resins website recently and found it a bit short on pictures (although I have heard nothing but positive comments about the products).

 

If you move the project to 1/32 scale, you may have a hard time finding VF-151 decals. I'm not aware of any.

That CAG bird on the 1/48 Furball sheet is the only decal option for a VF-151 F-4B of that cruise that I'm aware of.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

Edited by Stefan buysse
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48 minutes ago, Stefan buysse said:

Hi,

 

Interesting thread, JN.

Coincidently, I also took a look at the GT resins website recently and found it a bit short on pictures (although I have heard nothing but positive comments about the products).

 

If you move the project to 1/32 scale, you may have a hard time finding VF-151 decals. I'm not aware of any.

That CAG bird on the 1/48 Furball sheet is the only decal option for a VF-151 F-4B of that cruise that I'm aware of.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

 

Yeah, that's the only decal sheet I can find too.  I am thinking of trying to paint the tail and maybe try to cobble together the rest.  I have not settled on the particular aircraft yet, but once I do I may try to make my own masks and paint the correct BuNo and aircraft ID.  

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1 hour ago, JesusNut said:

 

Yeah, that's the only decal sheet I can find too.  I am thinking of trying to paint the tail and maybe try to cobble together the rest.  I have not settled on the particular aircraft yet, but once I do I may try to make my own masks and paint the correct BuNo and aircraft ID.  

 

Hi,

 

We may have been looking a bit too far in 1/32. You'd need a Tamiya F-4J and the NAVY boxing of that one has VF-151 decals for a line bird "NF216". It's a J, of course, but the markings are  (to my eye) identical to the B's of the '72-'73 cruise.

It's Tamiya item #60306.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

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Jesus,

if you go to page 9 of the F-4 galllery here on ARC and scroll down to Bill Schurr, you’ll see an Academy B I built wh en that kit first came out. I love the old Hasegawa kits but their detail is just to mushy by today’s  standard but still it makes a super nice replica. The thing i disliked most with that kit was that backbone seam and the intakes; on the outside that seam is a little tricky and the inside is void of anything resembling the real jet. If you go with Academy, go with a set of DM molds intakes if you plan on leaving fod covers off. The academy interior ducting is a rather weak attempt to duplicate the real jet. I agree with Ben on replacing the ecs intakes and stabs if you really want to kick things up. Of course the ZM kit is my fav but it’s too bad they dont have a B on the cards yet. Oh, Academy gives you that extended refueling probe too if you're inclined to add that.

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14 hours ago, Stefan buysse said:

 

Hi,

 

We may have been looking a bit too far in 1/32. You'd need a Tamiya F-4J and the NAVY boxing of that one has VF-151 decals for a line bird "NF216". It's a J, of course, but the markings are  (to my eye) identical to the B's of the '72-'73 cruise.

It's Tamiya item #60306.

 

Cheers, Stefan.

 

Stefan, I remembered I had seen that after you posted and went back to look again.  The only issue I see in using the decals for the tail is that the decal has "16" on it.  This would force me to build that particular aircraft and as far as I can tell, it was not on the 72-73 cruise.  But it would at least allow me to use all the other decals from the sheet as it appears the others are identical.  Thank you sir!

 

2 hours ago, BillS said:

Jesus,

if you go to page 9 of the F-4 galllery here on ARC and scroll down to Bill Schurr, you’ll see an Academy B I built wh en that kit first came out. I love the old Hasegawa kits but their detail is just to mushy by today’s  standard but still it makes a super nice replica. The thing i disliked most with that kit was that backbone seam and the intakes; on the outside that seam is a little tricky and the inside is void of anything resembling the real jet. If you go with Academy, go with a set of DM molds intakes if you plan on leaving fod covers off. The academy interior ducting is a rather weak attempt to duplicate the real jet. I agree with Ben on replacing the ecs intakes and stabs if you really want to kick things up. Of course the ZM kit is my fav but it’s too bad they dont have a B on the cards yet. Oh, Academy gives you that extended refueling probe too if you're inclined to add that.

 

Nice build Bill!  You didn't happen to post any WIP's somewhere, did you?  I have a lot to learn about the particulars on the B models.  Back when I was a kid, AM just wasn't there and we just weren't particular when we built these things.  I am hoping my old neighbor will be able to produce some photos of a particular aircraft and I can replicate it.

Edited by JesusNut
Correcting wrong info
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My personal favourite Phantom...the -B/N series! If you can still get it, get the Eduard edition of the Academy kit...either "Good Morning Da nang" or the "Bicentanniel" version. The later one has VF-151 decals included! Hypersonic parts as mentioned above are highly recommended unless you are a good scratcher yourself!

 

cheers

Uwe

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On 11/18/2017 at 10:32 PM, JesusNut said:

 

Wow!  Great breakdown Ben!  I appreciate the information.  Quite a few things that need to be addressed to make it as accurate as possible.  With that being said, I am not worried about making the corrections as needed.  One question though.  What do you mean by the RIO's controller?  Unless you tell me different, I will assume you mean flight controls.  If that is true, the RIO I was speaking to told me the B/N's RIO controls were removed since they would not be able to land the aircraft on a carrier die to the nose up attitude that was required on approach and not being able to see.  Of course, I will never say never and it is possible that some aircraft still had them, just not in VF-151 at the time.

 

 

Thanks Dean!  That will be something I need to consider as I move forward.  While I have a couple of almost-dones under my belt, I have yet to complete a kit.  So far they have been "practice" kits.  I have a few kits in my stash that I can continue to practice on, so...

 

 

Thanks Dnl42!  I have bookmarked that link, as well as the others so that I can get that one if/when the time comes.

 

 

You and me both brother!

 

ss

 

Thanks Gunny and airmechaja!  More food for thought.  That resin kit looks nice!

 

Tom,

 

One more for the aftermarket list you inquired about...IF using the Academy kit. The Eduard Brassin resin & etch "F-4J" cockpit set is more accurate or a F-4B & actually, should only be used in the Academy B/N variants. They used the 1967 NATOPS cockpit photos to design this set. The earliest J's that were fielded in '67 were lead noses & did not yet have the upgraded radars installed that I previously mentioned. Thus, those early birds essentially had B cockpits & the Brassin set would be most appropriate. You can tweak as needed depending on which jet & era you're wanting to depict. Keep us posted.

 

Blessings,

Masterguns 

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