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Hawk One

Tamiya X-22 questions

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I recently read on this forum about how some of you have switched over to Tamiya's X-22 Gloss and have since done some experimenting with it and I must say that I now prefer it to my Pledge/future. 

 

Couple of questions.

 

Has anybody experienced any compatibility issues airbrushing X-22 over a model that has already been airbrushed with Pledge/future. I have a few ready for decals but have given them a coat of future already and would like to switch to X-22 before I decal.

 

Secondly, I have an aircraft that has just undergone a tricky paint job, but now I trying to figure out how to gloss coat it with X-22.  There's no real easy way to hold it to airbrush the gloss coat.  Any tips or techniques?

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1 hour ago, Hawk One said:

 

Has anybody experienced any compatibility issues airbrushing X-22 over a model that has already been airbrushed with Pledge/future. I have a few ready for decals but have given them a coat of future already and would like to switch to X-22 before I decal.

 

Secondly, I have an aircraft that has just undergone a tricky paint job, but now I trying to figure out how to gloss coat it with X-22.  There's no real easy way to hold it to airbrush the gloss coat.  Any tips or techniques?

I am not sure about the compatibility with Future.  Future seems to stand up to a lot of paints. However, since you have already invested the time in applying decals, maybe test it on a paint mule?

 

What are you thinning the X22 with? I use Mr Leveling Thinner  with the X22 and it dried pretty quickly. I was able to carefully handle it within an hour.  What is the subject of the model? maybe we can offer suggestions on how to hold it. 

 

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I' ve been a life long user of Testors Dullcoat and Glosscoat.  I tried Pledge and after a few models went back to Glosscoat. Now I've switched to Tamiya X-22 and haven't looked back.  I thin it 1:1 with Tamiya Yellow Cap rather then X-20A as that's what I currently use for all my paints, and a few drops of a Windsor & Newton Flow Enhancer. 

 

As far as handling any paint scheme. I start on the bottom side, and using a homemade paint model stand from a shoe box and rigid foam pipe insulation,  I airbrush the bottom half with a tack coat, then a heavier coat, followed by a wet coat thinned 1:3. When dry in a few hours I can safely turn over the model and do the top side. 

 

After a day or two drying time, I rub it out the X-22 with 1,500 then 4,000 foam pads for a smooth decaling surface. 

 

Joel

Edited by Joel_W

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Model is a 48 scale Kiowa. I think I may try Joel’s method of clear coating the underside, then when dry finishing the sides and top. 

 

I thinned it the same way Joel did; 1:1 with Tamiya’s lacquer thinner. Came out glossy, very smooth and dried very quickly. 

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5 hours ago, Joel_W said:

I' ve been a life long user of Testors Dullcoat and Glosscoat.  I tried Pledge and after a few models went back to Glosscoat. Now I've switched to Tamiya X-22 and haven't looked back.  I thin it 1:1 with Tamiya Yellow Cap rather then X-20A as that's what I currently use for all my paints, and a few drops of a Windsor & Newton Flow Enhancer. 

 

As far as handling any paint scheme. I start on the bottom side, and using a homemade paint model stand from a shoe box and rigid foam pipe insulation,  I airbrush the bottom half with a tack coat, then a heavier coat, followed by a wet coat thinned 1:3. When dry in a few hours I can safely turn over the model and do the top side. 

 

After a day or two drying time, I rub it out the X-22 with 1,500 then 4,000 foam pads for a smooth decaling surface. 

 

Joel

 

Joel, or anyone,

 

Is the Tamiya Yellow cap close to the Mr Color Leveling Thinner?  I just bought some of that and love it for thinning my Tamiya paints.  I cannot imagine why it would not work with the clear as well.  Any thoughts?

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2 hours ago, JesusNut said:

 

Joel, or anyone,

 

Is the Tamiya Yellow cap close to the Mr Color Leveling Thinner?  I just bought some of that and love it for thinning my Tamiya paints.  I cannot imagine why it would not work with the clear as well.  Any thoughts?

 

From what I have read they are supposed to be about the same strength, not a hot as hardware store thinner. The difference is that the yellow cap thinner does not have the retarder that Mr Leveling Thinner does.

 

And about holing your helicopter model, if you have not installed the main rotor, can you insert a piece of sprue or a dowel in the hole where the rotor assembly would go?  Otherwise, I guess your only choice is what Joel suggested.

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   I've been adding Windsor & Newton Flow Enhancer to my thinned paints at the ratio of 1 drop to every 12 drops of mixture. Just gives it a little more time to level out before it starts to dry off. 

 

  As for Tamiya's Yellow Cap, it's a model friendly, mild lacquer thinner, and it will thin out just about anything short of enamels. I've used it on Mig Ammo paints, & Tamiya paints without a single issue. I used it to thin Testors Dullcoat and Glosscoat, and now Tamiya's X-22. Not a single issue to date. 

 

  Tamiya's X20-A is an Alcohol based thinner and works well with Tamiya type acrylics, but not so great with many of the water based paints as they tend to congeal in your air brush causing all sorts of issues. Yellow cap as a Lacquer thinner is supposed to breakdown the paint pigments to smaller particles in solution then the Alcohol based X20-A. To me it just seems like the dried paint is smoother.

 

Joel 

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19 hours ago, Kurt H. said:

 

From what I have read they are supposed to be about the same strength, not a hot as hardware store thinner. The difference is that the yellow cap thinner does not have the retarder that Mr Leveling Thinner does.

 

And about holing your helicopter model, if you have not installed the main rotor, can you insert a piece of sprue or a dowel in the hole where the rotor assembly would go?  Otherwise, I guess your only choice is what Joel suggested.

 

7 hours ago, Joel_W said:

   I've been adding Windsor & Newton Flow Enhancer to my thinned paints at the ratio of 1 drop to every 12 drops of mixture. Just gives it a little more time to level out before it starts to dry off. 

 

  As for Tamiya's Yellow Cap, it's a model friendly, mild lacquer thinner, and it will thin out just about anything short of enamels. I've used it on Mig Ammo paints, & Tamiya paints without a single issue. I used it to thin Testors Dullcoat and Glosscoat, and now Tamiya's X-22. Not a single issue to date. 

 

  Tamiya's X20-A is an Alcohol based thinner and works well with Tamiya type acrylics, but not so great with many of the water based paints as they tend to congeal in your air brush causing all sorts of issues. Yellow cap as a Lacquer thinner is supposed to breakdown the paint pigments to smaller particles in solution then the Alcohol based X20-A. To me it just seems like the dried paint is smoother.

 

Joel 

 

 

Thank you gentlemen.  It sounds like Mr Color LT will be just about as good. I have been using it for the paint with awesome results, but wasn't sure about the clear. 

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I've always had trouble with getting a nice gloss coat.  Reading over on Large Scale Planes - Chuck (a master builder) mentioned his switch to X-22 thinned around 50% with Mr. Color LT.  I tried that - (and I live in the humid Southeast) - and still had some undesirable very light "frosting" (not the complete gloss I was hoping for).  Someone else had mentioned that after spraying that mixture - to spray a light mist coat of straight Mr. Color LT.  It turned out great - I was really happy with the result and will be using it full time .

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11 hours ago, GEH737 said:

I've always had trouble with getting a nice gloss coat.  Reading over on Large Scale Planes - Chuck (a master builder) mentioned his switch to X-22 thinned around 50% with Mr. Color LT.  I tried that - (and I live in the humid Southeast) - and still had some undesirable very light "frosting" (not the complete gloss I was hoping for).  Someone else had mentioned that after spraying that mixture - to spray a light mist coat of straight Mr. Color LT.  It turned out great - I was really happy with the result and will be using it full time .

   It was my brother Peter who suggested to Chuck about the switch to X-22 and cutting it 1:1 from Pledge. Pete used Tamiya Yellow Cap while chuck used Mr. Color's thinner. The final wet leveling coat that Chuck applied was more of a 20:80 mixture if I remember correctly. 

 

  I've been going thinner and thinner on my final wet coat and it does indeed make a huge difference.  I do believe that the humidity does indeed effect Acrylics especially the clears. Glad to hear that the wet coat really helps with that issue.

Joel

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Thanks Joel - I remember that Chuck had upped the level of thinner he was using, and that it was someone else who mentioned the thin "flash coat" of Mr. LT.  Having never really being happy with the gloss coats before - it was really nice to find something that worked so well and easily.  These forums are great for so many sharing great tips that we all can use :)

 

George

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19 hours ago, GEH737 said:

Thanks Joel - I remember that Chuck had upped the level of thinner he was using, and that it was someone else who mentioned the thin "flash coat" of Mr. LT.  Having never really being happy with the gloss coats before - it was really nice to find something that worked so well and easily.  These forums are great for so many sharing great tips that we all can use :)

 

George

George,

  One of my major issues was coming to terms with what really caused the not so smooth gloss finishes. The color coats often needed to be rubbed out as they were rough and where you could get paint turbulence like wing roots, I just glossed over them. So the gloss looked the same. Now I rub out my color coats till I feel it's smooth enough. I do the same with my clear gloss coats as well. You can just polish/rub out the Glosscoat if it's fairly smooth and have a proper surface to decal on. Paul Budzik has gotten this down to the point that he doesn't need gloss any more to decal. I honesty can't imagine ever getting to that point. 

 

  The mostly thinned out top Glosscoat is self leveling the previous coats, so more is better, but only to a point. Once it gets shiny and wet looking you've reached that magic point.

 

Joel

 

 

 

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On 11/21/2017 at 5:03 PM, Joel_W said:

After a day or two drying time, I rub it out the X-22 with 1,500 then 4,000 foam pads for a smooth decaling surface. 

 

Joel

 

What make of foam pads do you use Joel?

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17 minutes ago, Hawk One said:

 

What make of foam pads do you use Joel?

Hawk,

  I have the standard Micro Mesh pad set: 4,000, 6,000, 8,000, & 12,000. Tamiya makes sponge pads for courser grades: 1,000, & 1,500. I got the 2,000 grit pad at an automotive parts store. but it's not a sponge so you have to be careful using it, and that means plenty of water and a very light hand. Here, less is the only way to go. 

Joel

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Happy New Year to all...

 

So here's an update with X-22. I wish it was a more positive one.

 

After hand-brushing two coats of Pledge/Future over a flat coat of white,  I proceeded to decals.  (This was before I read about X-22.)  The surface after the 2 coats of brushed on future wasn't ultra super smooth but I figured it was smooth enough.  The paint was white so if any silvering occurred I wouldn't see it anyway.  Leading Edge decals went on nicely using Pledge as my settler.  From all appearances after a few days, none of the decals had silvered although it was really hard to tell over the white paint.

 

I normally seal my decals in with one final coat of Pledge/Future.  Now since this model needed a gloss coat finish and I had now read about X-22 and experimented with it on a few test beds, I decided to use X-22 as the final coat.  I mixed it 50/50 with Mr Color LT and it went on nicely.  Aside from laying down a nice gloss coat, X-22 is also very good at helping you identify the decals that have air beneath them.  The next morning, most of the large decals were riddled with massive air bubbles.  I tried salvaging them by poking holes and using Pledge to settle them back down.  No luck.  So I tried Micro Sol.  No luck there either.  They were solidly locked in placed by the X-22.  So to my dismay, after all that hard work, this is not one that will see the display case.

 

There has to be something wrong with what I am doing.  I'm not sure if it's my gloss coats that aren't smooth enough or I'm not doing something right to settle my decals properly.  I airbrush using the Tamiya series, lots of flat coats, because of the color variety.  I've always struggled getting a smooth gloss coat afterwards and with setting decals correctly.

 

 

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Were you using Tamiya decals? I only used them once, and with a similar result. That was the first, last, and only time I will ever use Tamiya decals.

 

I've used Tamiya X-22, Mr Color 46, and GlossCoat/DullCoat over all kinds of decals, including home printed decals, without issues. To be sure though, I've only used one of them on any specific model. All have been over Mr Color paint. Also never had problems with GlossCoat/DullCoat when I used MM enamels.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

    The smoothness of the gloss surfaces is super important to decals laying down properly without silvering and or flash. No matter what gloss I use, I rub out the gloss finish with a Tamiya 2,000 sponge, then wipe the entire surface with a Tamiya tack cloth. 

  

    I use the Microsol decaling system followed by Solvaset in almost all cases. Cartograf decals really don't require the Solvaset. For really difficult decals, I use Mr.Mark Setter and Sol  instead of the above system.  

  

   X-22 is an acrylic base clear gloss and won't react with the Pledge. it's the Lacquer based solvent used for thinning that can start to dissolve the Pledge if you apply to wet of a 1st few coats. You should air brush on a few light tack coats, and make sure that they're completely dry before two wet coats. 

  

   What it sounds like is that the Mr. Color Thinner reacted with the pledge that had dried on top of the decals causing those spots to raise up and create an air pocket. Once the X-22 dried as the Lacquer thinner evaporated, the decals hardened once again.  Did you air brush the cover coat over the entire model or basically just on and around the decals?

  

Joel

Edited by Joel_W

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Decals were from Leading Edge which I've never had any issues with before.

 

The whole model was airbrushed with X-22, not just over the decals.  I do have another model ready for decals and has a nice smooth coat of X-22 or what feels like a nice smooth coat of X-22.  It definitely feels way smoother that my attempts with Pledge/Future.  I will use MicroSol for this one and see if that solves the problem.  I really do like the smoothness of X-22. 

 

I did get some Tamiya sponges and will give those a try as well.  Do you use them wet or dry?

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Hawk One said:

Decals were from Leading Edge which I've never had any issues with before.

 

The whole model was airbrushed with X-22, not just over the decals.  I do have another model ready for decals and has a nice smooth coat of X-22 or what feels like a nice smooth coat of X-22.  It definitely feels way smoother that my attempts with Pledge/Future.  I will use MicroSol for this one and see if that solves the problem.  I really do like the smoothness of X-22. 

 

I did get some Tamiya sponges and will give those a try as well.  Do you use them wet or dry?

I've never used Pledge as a setting agent. I'm from the camp of not trying to reinvent the wheel. Lets keep in mind that Pledge/Future isn't a model specific tool, it's a floor finish. Like I said, I used it, didn't much care for it, and now only use it for spot applications. 

 

I don't know If you were a member when chuck was active here. He's a master builder who use to use Pledge, but now only uses X-22 . His technique was a final wet coat @ 1:10, but I don't remember exactly what he thinned it with. That smoothed out the surface. And he still rubed it if I remember correctly. 

 

I use the Tamiya sponges dry as there so little material being removed. But as I said, I do use a tack cloth afterwards. 

 

I'd definitely go with the Micro system, and if needed Solvaset. The important thing to remember is to get each solution enough time to work. I give Set a full min, Sol till it starts to dry, and Solvaset, I don't touch period. I do roll the decals with a damp Qtip, and the Solvaset with a damp warm Cloth after the wrinkles are gone. 

 

I'd still use a tack coat or two of Gloss if you're thinning it with a lacquer based solvent as it can soften almost any paint or clearcoat. You could thin X-22 with X-20A  as it's Alcohol based as it not nearly as strong as Yellow cap, but I'm set in my ways and still use a tack coat 1st.

 

Joel

Edited by Joel_W

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If you go to the website "Large Scale Planes" - Chuck did a beautiful 1/32 Tamiya F-15C and he describes his transition to X-22.  It's a beautiful build - and worth your time.

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11 hours ago, GEH737 said:

If you go to the website "Large Scale Planes" - Chuck did a beautiful 1/32 Tamiya F-15C and he describes his transition to X-22.  It's a beautiful build - and worth your time.

 Absolutely a great build. As a matter of fact, the Peter he refers to in his conversion to X-22 is my brother. As that's how I also got converted. My only complaint about it is that it only comes in 10ml & 23ml bottles. Now a 250ml bottle would be the perfect size.

Joel

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Yes - and Future is really a floor wax...

 

Point being - if you can use it sucessfully - then it works.  I've used it thinned around 50% with "Mr. Leveling Thinner" - than a light mist coat of straight Mr. L.T., and it works very nicely.

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  Don't know when Tamiya made that statement, but they're wrong about the scope of their own product. It's one of the best gloss clear Acrylics I've ever used.  it may have been originally formulated as an additive, but it turned out to be just that much more as a stand alone product.

Joel

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