F-4E questions for experts

[pelops44]

Hello I would like the F-4 experts,

if the Pave Knife pod was used with the later (slated wing)  F-4E or just with the F-4C/D ?

the Pave Knife was used with what weapons (laser guided bombs, HOBOS, Bullpups) ?

I would also appreciate any foto with loaded F-4E other than the usual with Mk-82,83, etc

 

Thanks in advance

[Mstor]

From what I have been able to find, it was only used (by the USAF) on a small number of F-4Ds. From the Wikipedia article:

"A dozen USAF F-4Ds of the 433d Tactical Fighter Squadron, all from Block 31, were wired for Pave Knife, a dozen of which pods were built and six deployed to Southeast Asia. Three were held in reserve and three were diverted to the U.S. Navy for use on A-6As of VA-145."

[mrvark]

The modified aircraft were F-4D-31s: 66-7652, 7674, 7675, 7679, 7680, 7681, 7707, 7709, 7743, 7760, 7766, and 7773. All were assigned to the 433rd TFS, 8th TFW (FG), with the first combat sorties being flown in March 1971. The primary weapon used by the Knife jets were the Precision Avionics Vectoring Equipment (PAVE) Way I Mk 84  LGB, which at the time was also known as the BOLT-84 (this probably stood for Bomb, Laser Targeted, but I've never seen a definitive explanation).The standard tactic was to attack as a four-ship, with the lead aircraft carrying a Knife pod on the left inboard station with Mk 84 LGBs on the left outboard and right inboard stations, a 370-gal wing tank on the right outboard station, 600-gal centerline tank a pair of AN/ALQ-87s in the front wells and a pair of AIM-7E-2s in the aft wells.

 

According to Marshall Michel's definitive work on the Vietnam air war, Clashes, the entire 1972 Linebacker tactical bombing campaign was built around the six AN/AVQ-10 PAVE Knife pods. However, the pods were already obsolete and were soon replaced by the AN/AVQ-23 PAVE Spike pods that were already under operational testing in theater, and became the standard targeting pod for years afterward. There was apparently some consideration to giving the Knife pods to Israel during the 1973 war, but there is no evidence that this happened (the IAF was a little busy and could hardly have had time to modify aircraft and train crews to use these temperamental pods).

 

BTW, aircraft didn't have to be fitted with a pod to drop LGBs. The other three jets in the formation carried three tanks and LGBs on the inboard stations (and could be from any of the 8th TFW squadrons (FA, FO, FP or FY coded). In addition to the Mk 84 LGB, the Mk 82 and M118 LGBs were also employed. In early 1973 (after the war was over) these bombs were renamed GBU-12, 10 & 11, respectively. I think the Mk 82 LGBs could be mounted as 'Flat-twos' on the shoulder racks of TERs, but I'm not positive about that. The M117 LGBs were no longer in use by the time the Knife pods arrived. The Mk 83 LGBs were never used by the USAF.

 

It's uncertain what the fate of the USAF Knife pods was; the three surviving pods (on display at China Lake, Udvar-Hazy, and NMUSAF) are the three pods that were given to the Navy to use with A-6As. Perhaps they're in that government warehouse next to the Arc of the Covenant...

[Murph]

1 hour ago, mrvark said:

It's uncertain what the fate of the USAF Knife pods was; the three surviving pods (on display at China Lake, Udvar-Hazy, and NMUSAF) are the three pods that were given to the Navy to use with A-6As. Perhaps they're in that government warehouse next to the Arc of the Covenant...

 

 

 

[11bee]

17 hours ago, mrvark said:

The modified aircraft were F-4D-31s: 66-7652, 7674, 7675, 7679, 7680, 7681, 7707, 7709, 7743, 7760, 7766, and 7773. All were assigned to the 433rd TFS, 8th TFW (FG), with the first combat sorties being flown in March 1971. The primary weapon used by the Knife jets were the Precision Avionics Vectoring Equipment (PAVE) Way I Mk 84  LGB, which at the time was also known as the BOLT-84 (this probably stood for Bomb, Laser Targeted, but I've never seen a definitive explanation).The standard tactic was to attack as a four-ship, with the lead aircraft carrying a Knife pod on the left inboard station with Mk 84 LGBs on the left outboard and right inboard stations, a 370-gal wing tank on the right outboard station, 600-gal centerline tank a pair of AN/ALQ-87s in the front wells and a pair of AIM-7E-2s in the aft wells.

 

According to Marshall Michel's definitive work on the Vietnam air war, Clashes, the entire 1972 Linebacker tactical bombing campaign was built around the six AN/AVQ-10 PAVE Knife pods. However, the pods were already obsolete and were soon replaced by the AN/AVQ-23 PAVE Spike pods that were already under operational testing in theater, and became the standard targeting pod for years afterward. There was apparently some consideration to giving the Knife pods to Israel during the 1973 war, but there is no evidence that this happened (the IAF was a little busy and could hardly have had time to modify aircraft and train crews to use these temperamental pods).

 

BTW, aircraft didn't have to be fitted with a pod to drop LGBs. The other three jets in the formation carried three tanks and LGBs on the inboard stations (and could be from any of the 8th TFW squadrons (FA, FO, FP or FY coded). In addition to the Mk 84 LGB, the Mk 82 and M118 LGBs were also employed. In early 1973 (after the war was over) these bombs were renamed GBU-12, 10 & 11, respectively. I think the Mk 82 LGBs could be mounted as 'Flat-twos' on the shoulder racks of TERs, but I'm not positive about that. The M117 LGBs were no longer in use by the time the Knife pods arrived. The Mk 83 LGBs were never used by the USAF.

 

It's uncertain what the fate of the USAF Knife pods was; the three surviving pods (on display at China Lake, Udvar-Hazy, and NMUSAF) are the three pods that were given to the Navy to use with A-6As. Perhaps they're in that government warehouse next to the Arc of the Covenant...

Thanks for a good summary Vark!  The entire 72 air campaign is fascinating (at least to me), since it's the beginning of the way the US conducts it's current air wars (PGM's, integrated SEAD assets, BVR missile engagements).   Do you know if the USAF also deployed early PAVE Spike pods or do they come along too late?  Also, in addition to the PAVE Spikes, didn't the USAF also use a few "Zot Boxes", canopy mounted designators for the backseaters in certain F-4D's?    On a related note, anyone have pics of this device?   I've been looking for ages, no luck. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by 11bee

[Mizar]

 

Some Zot thing pictures are probably available on the Combat Workshop blog in form of a F-5E/F with GBU article

 

I once had a magazine showing a flight of 3 or 4 FP Phantoms with a variety of GBU and asymmetric loads but I no longer have it and I don't think I still have said picture in my messy archive,the other picture could be found on the first Squadron's F-4 Phantom in Action issue and maybe some Zot pictures are in some japanese magazine, but again I have to check the load of scanned magazines/books and it's an easy thing, also one more picture of FP Phantoms flight is still available around the web,also there it was a website with lots of Ubon/Udorn Phantoms but I think is no longer around and I can't find the bookmark to force my way through the archive 😕

 

Luigi

[mrvark]

6 hours ago, 11bee said:

Thanks for a good summary Vark!  The entire 72 air campaign is fascinating (at least to me), since it's the beginning of the way the US conducts it's current air wars (PGM's, integrated SEAD assets, BVR missile engagements).   Do you know if the USAF also deployed early PAVE Spike pods or do they come along too late?  Also, in addition to the PAVE Spikes, didn't the USAF also use a few "Zot Boxes", canopy mounted designators for the backseaters in certain F-4D's?    On a related note, anyone have pics of this device?   I've been looking for ages, no luck. 

There were some AN/AVQ-23 PAVE Spike pods in SEA beginning in late May 1972. The only one I know of for sure was 66-8804, which was assigned to the 497th TFS (coded FP). What role they may have played in Linebacker is unknown to me.

 

Beginning in mid May 1968, four AN/AVQ-9 PAVE Light (Zot Box) aircraft (F-4D-33: 66-8814, -8815, -8817, and -8823) were assigned to the 433 TFS (coded FG). Later, additional aircraft were modified, including F-4D-26: 65-0597, -0609; F-4D-27: 65-0612, -0642; F-4D-28: 65-0677, -0705; and F-4D-29 65-0786. This system was not useful in high threat areas. As with the Knife pods, most bombs employed were Mk 84 LGBs, although some M117 and M118 LGBs were also employed (probably Mk 82 LGBs as well, but I'm not positive about that). Note: the F-4 Zot Box was completely different than the ones used by Iranian F-5Fs.

[JEN722]

7 hours ago, 11bee said:

Thanks for a good summary Vark!  The entire 72 air campaign is fascinating (at least to me), since it's the beginning of the way the US conducts it's current air wars (PGM's, integrated SEAD assets, BVR missile engagements).   Do you know if the USAF also deployed early PAVE Spike pods or do they come along too late?  Also, in addition to the PAVE Spikes, didn't the USAF also use a few "Zot Boxes", canopy mounted designators for the backseaters in certain F-4D's?    On a related note, anyone have pics of this device?   I've been looking for ages, no luck. 

 

The Iranians also had a few Zot Box equipped F-4Ds. I have seen only a few pictures of the installation. Here's one.

Jens

[Finn]

Here is a F-4 with a load of LGBs and napalm:

 

 

Jari

[Finn]

Some videos here:

 

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675071240_Mark-84-Laser-Guided-Bombs_Ubon-Royal-Thai-Air-Force-Base_F-4D_Electronic-countermeasures-pod

 

check under Related clips for more. You can watch them for free.

 

Jari

[Mstor]

21 minutes ago, Finn said:

Here is a F-4 with a load of LGBs and napalm:

 

Smoking! That's some great film.