Rob de Bie Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I would like to know what type of bomb is included in the Monogram 1/48 F-84F. It looks like a AN-M65A1 with a M129 tail. Can anyone check the dimensions that I found in an old manual? length 91.1", scale 48.2 mmm diameter 18.8", scale 9.9 mm fin span 26.2", scale 13.9 mm Thanks in advance! Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drifterdon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 M117 750 pounder Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Drifterdon said: M117 750 pounder Ah yes, the M117 would be the alternative. I looked up its dimensions too: length 84.0", scale 44.5 mm diameter 16.1", scale 8.5 mm fin span 22.4", scale 11.9 mm So the M117 is a bit smaller in all dimensions. If I look at the photo below from iModeler it looks just a bit too blunt for an M117, that's why my guess is an M65. Hopefully the dimensions can tell us? Rob Edited June 14, 2018 by Rob de Bie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drifterdon Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 check out the shape of the 117 in this pic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M117_bomb#/media/File:F-100D_308TFS_31TFW_TuyHoa_1966.jpg Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Drifterdon said: check out the shape of the 117 in this pic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M117_bomb#/media/File:F-100D_308TFS_31TFW_TuyHoa_1966.jpg At the risk of sounding very stubborn: that looks like an M65 too! And there's some proof of that visible in the photo: you can see that the bomb has three suspension lugs: the usual 'modern' twin lugs on the top side, and a single lug on the bottom side. You can see the latter quite clearly. The M117 only has twin lugs. Another quite interesting clue are the brown bands on the bomb: they are probably the result of the bomb being stored with its transportation rings (shipping bands) fitted. The M65 (and others from the series) had welded-on lugs, so the bomb could not be rolled as-is. To facilitate moving, they were fitted with wooden rings, so they could be rolled. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the M117 had screw-in lugs, and that would take away the need for transportation rings. Rob Edited June 14, 2018 by Rob de Bie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
seawinder Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 I get the following dimensions for the Monogram item: length: just short of 48mm not counting the fuse "propeller" diameter: right around 10mm fin span: just over 15mm All are pretty close to those Rob posted at the top of the thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeffryfontaine Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Rob de Bie said: I would like to know what type of bomb is included in the Monogram 1/48 F-84F. It looks like a AN-M65A1 with a M129 tail. Can anyone check the dimensions that I found in an old manual? length 91.1", scale 48.2 mmm diameter 18.8", scale 9.9 mm fin span 26.2", scale 13.9 mm Thanks in advance! Rob The UXOInfo page on for the M65 1000 pound General Purpose Bomb (http://uxoinfo.com/blogcfc/client/includes/uxopages/Mulvaney_Details.cfm?Ord_Id=B96 ) has a pdf document that you can download at this link: http://65.175.100.54/uxofiles/mulvaney/techdatasheets/Bomb,GeneralPurpose,1000lbs,AN-M65&AN-M65A1.pdf It includes some details on the bomb and some dimensional data that might be useful Your initial analysis though was correct, the bomb in the Monogram F-84F kit is supposed to represent the M65 1000 pound bomb with a conical tail assembly. It is often mistaken for the smaller but similar in shape M117 750 pound general purpose bomb. Additional link with some information on the M65 1000 pound GP bomb: http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html http://www.ammunitionpages.com - go to the section on bombs, select "American Bombs" and then select " An introduction to US bombs" to download the pdf file with that title. A nice easy to read document of 29 pages that describes the various bombs and a bit of history. Before I switched from MS Win Vista I used to have a really decent program that was linked to an on-line data base that held a lot of irreplaceable information on ordnance/UXO and it was a real asset. Switching to MS Windows 7, I discovered that the program was no longer compatible and I lost the program and access to the data base. Unhappy? Very much so. A pox on MicroSoft for their oversight. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Drifterdon Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 The side of the box top of the kit (#5432) sitting next to my desk lists the contents as - Two 750 lb "iron bombs". I interpreted that to mean M117. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeffryfontaine Posted June 15, 2018 Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Drifterdon said: The side of the box top of the kit (#5432) sitting next to my desk lists the contents as - Two 750 lb "iron bombs". I interpreted that to mean M117. I initially made the same mistake years ago when I first purchased the same F-84F kits. It helped to have other kits (Hasegawa weapons sets) that included M117 bomb shapes which made me realize that the ordnance in the F-84F kit (same bomb is also included with the F-86 NATO Sabre that includes Luftwaffe and RCAF markings) represented a different bomb type. The more I compared the two types (M65 vs M117) side by side I realized that there were real differences in size, shape, and appearance. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, seawinder said: I get the following dimensions for the Monogram item: length: just short of 48mm not counting the fuse "propeller" diameter: right around 10mm fin span: just over 15mm All are pretty close to those Rob posted at the top of the thread. Many thanks for measuring the parts! That confims my suspicion. I'm happy that we now have an AN-M65 in this scale. Rob Edited June 15, 2018 by Rob de Bie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 11 hours ago, jeffryfontaine said: The UXOInfo page on for the M65 1000 pound General Purpose Bomb (http://uxoinfo.com/blogcfc/client/includes/uxopages/Mulvaney_Details.cfm?Ord_Id=B96 ) has a pdf document that you can download at this link: http://65.175.100.54/uxofiles/mulvaney/techdatasheets/Bomb,GeneralPurpose,1000lbs,AN-M65&AN-M65A1.pdf It includes some details on the bomb and some dimensional data that might be useful Your initial analysis though was correct, the bomb in the Monogram F-84F kit is supposed to represent the M65 1000 pound bomb with a conical tail assembly. It is often mistaken for the smaller but similar in shape M117 750 pound general purpose bomb. Additional link with some information on the M65 1000 pound GP bomb: http://www.skytamer.com/AN-M65.html http://www.ammunitionpages.com - go to the section on bombs, select "American Bombs" and then select " An introduction to US bombs" to download the pdf file with that title. A nice easy to read document of 29 pages that describes the various bombs and a bit of history. Before I switched from MS Win Vista I used to have a really decent program that was linked to an on-line data base that held a lot of irreplaceable information on ordnance/UXO and it was a real asset. Switching to MS Windows 7, I discovered that the program was no longer compatible and I lost the program and access to the data base. Unhappy? Very much so. A pox on MicroSoft for their oversight. Thanks for the links! To trade manuals: I found these as PDFs on the internet: - TM 9-1980, Bombs for Aircraft (1950) - OP 2216, Aircraft Bombs, Fuzes, and Associated Components (1960) They contain a lot of solid information. Regarding the software problems, did you try to run in 'compatibilty mode'? You can find that under right click when your mouse is on the .exe file. That sometimes solves the problem. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 10 hours ago, Drifterdon said: The side of the box top of the kit (#5432) sitting next to my desk lists the contents as - Two 750 lb "iron bombs". I interpreted that to mean M117. I thought I remembered that these bombs were 'officialy' declared to be 750 pounders (i.e. by Monogram). But the instruction sheet does not say so, so I started to wonder. Now I know, thanks! Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 15, 2018 Author Share Posted June 15, 2018 5 hours ago, jeffryfontaine said: I initially made the same mistake years ago when I first purchased the same F-84F kits. It helped to have other kits (Hasegawa weapons sets) that included M117 bomb shapes which made me realize that the ordnance in the F-84F kit (same bomb is also included with the F-86 NATO Sabre that includes Luftwaffe and RCAF markings) represented a different bomb type. The more I compared the two types (M65 vs M117) side by side I realized that there were real differences in size, shape, and appearance. Thanks for another confirmation that these were M65s, plus identifying another kit that has them! I think you're talking about the 'Canadair Sabre' box? I found some sprue photos but didn't see the bombs. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeffryfontaine Posted June 16, 2018 Share Posted June 16, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, Rob de Bie said: Thanks for another confirmation that these were M65s, plus identifying another kit that has them! I think you're talking about the 'Canadair Sabre' box? I found some sprue photos but didn't see the bombs. Rob Yes, it was the 'Canadair Sabre' kit number 5417. ScaleMates has an image of the kit box but there are no known on-line in-box reviews: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/186846-monogram-5417-canadair-sabre# That Canadair Sabre kit also includes the larger drop tanks and some very generic Sidewinder shapes. Wonder if Eduard has any intention of offering some of those M64, M65, and M66 series bombs with the conical tail assemblies, sure would be nice to have some consistency in the various sizes of bombs from that era. Edited June 16, 2018 by jeffryfontaine sharing additional information Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 16, 2018 Author Share Posted June 16, 2018 8 hours ago, jeffryfontaine said: Yes, it was the 'Canadair Sabre' kit number 5417. ScaleMates has an image of the kit box but there are no known on-line in-box reviews: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/186846-monogram-5417-canadair-sabre# That Canadair Sabre kit also includes the larger drop tanks and some very generic Sidewinder shapes. Wonder if Eduard has any intention of offering some of those M64, M65, and M66 series bombs with the conical tail assemblies, sure would be nice to have some consistency in the various sizes of bombs from that era. I just found an Ebay photo that indeed shows these bombs in the 'Canadair Sabre': One other option that I need to check is Isra Cast 48046 'IAF Vintage 500kg GP Bombs'. Judging from web photos they look as detailed as the Monogram version - i.e. not very well. The fins look flat, whereas the real one has a (rough) airfoil shape, and the conical tail consists of four identical spot-welded pieces. Here's a photo of one I took in the Soesterberg museum : Regarding others from the series, I only looked for the AN-M66 (2000 lbs) and found the following: Accurate Miniatures / Italeri Avenger, Attack Squadron 48030, True Details TD48505. However they are all versions with the 'boxy' and short tail section. But if anyone knows another source, I'm all ears. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeffryfontaine Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 The Tamiya A-1H/AD-6 and A-1J/AD-7 kits include some of these bomb shapes with conical tail assemblies that are supposed to represent the 250 pound version but this is definitely not one of Tamiya's better efforts. CyberModeler has in-box reviews of both kits: Tamiya 61058 - 1/48 A-1H (AD-6) Skyraider Kit First Look ------> https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/tam/kit_tam_61058.shtml Tamiya 61073 - 1/48 A-1J (AD-7) Skyraider Kit First Look ------> https://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/tam/kit_tam_61073.shtml The method by which Tamiya wants you to mount the larger stores with those little plastic grommet things is a real disappointment. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeffryfontaine Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 One other kit that I have in the stash is the 1/48th scale ESCI Fiat G-91 which included some rocket pods plus a pair of what were supposed to be 1000 pound general purpose bombs. Rather generic in shape but they were the only thing available when that kit came out back in the 70s. Did Italeri release this kit under their brand name? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 17, 2018 Author Share Posted June 17, 2018 16 minutes ago, jeffryfontaine said: One other kit that I have in the stash is the 1/48th scale ESCI Fiat G-91 which included some rocket pods plus a pair of what were supposed to be 1000 pound general purpose bombs. Rather generic in shape but they were the only thing available when that kit came out back in the 70s. Did Italeri release this kit under their brand name? Ha! I built that kit as a youngster, my only 1/48 kit I think. And found the bombs in my spares box. I don't recognise them as M65s, the Monogram depiction is 10x better. Diameter is 10% too small, the bomb body looks too long, but overall length is 3 mm short. Scalemates says the kit was reissued by Italeri: https://www.scalemates.com/kits/944145-esci-4027-fiat-g-91-r-1-r-3-gina Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 (edited) Looks like M65s on the left, incorrectly ID'd as M117s note the lug welded on rather than the screw in type the M117 had: Jari Edited June 18, 2018 by Finn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted June 18, 2018 Author Share Posted June 18, 2018 9 hours ago, Finn said: Looks like M65s on the left, incorrectly ID'd as M117s note the lug welded on rather than the screw in type the M117 had: Jari I think you're right! I made a mental note to always double check when M117s are reported 🙂 Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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