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Speedy

IRIAF F-4 D Phantoms

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Hello Phantoms Wizards.

Anybody of you out there have some good reference for building an accurate IRIAF F-4 D?

Which is the best kit to choose, what are the differences with USAF F-4 D Phantoms?

Picked up a Academy F-4 C Phantom II. Is this the same story, when converting to just change the cockpit with a Resin AM?

My 1/32 scale build of a D is on hold, screwed up and have some major failures to restore, which makes me want to build something else while waiting for the spirit to solve those issues.

Any information that helps me finding my way in to this subject  is very appreciated.

 

Just a very nice bird to watch...

 

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan   

28155732_546692162396845_5824897757084647424_n.jpg

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The F-4D also had a slightly different chin fairing, with the lump on the bottom that you see in the photo.

 

The Academy F-4C kit has everything you need to build a D, including cockpit parts. The only difference between their C and D kits are the addition of photo etched formation light panels. You'll use fin cap Part G37 and chin fairing Part G3. If you use the kit cockpit, use instrument panels M4 and M5, and instrument panel glare shield N3 with clear part R10.

 

If you want to go for more accuracy: 

  • You'll need to replace the ACS scoops on the sides of the nose with wider aftermarket ones. Hypersonic and Steel Beach sell them.
  • The panel line that marks the break between the painted and natural metal parts of the stabilators will need to be filled and moved. Academy got it wrong (too much painted area). Or you can replace them with resin ones from Hypersonic or Royale Resin. Hypersonic's include photo etched parts for the pivot point details, so you don't have to try to salvage the molded-in detail when you fill the nasty seams between the two black parts that make up the aft fuselage.
  • DMold and XMM make nice intakes with accurate ducts. Academy's are fictional.

 

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Others with better memories will be able to add more.

 

Ben

 

Edited by Ben Brown

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Hello Ben,

Thanks for the reply, very useful already. Did some search for AM and the XMM seamless intakes look very interesting.

Too bad that Hypersonic Models is still offline. The 48ers don't have the replacements for mentioned tail section in which Academy failed, neither from Royale Resin. So will have to wait for that. How is the quality of the exhausts Academy provide with the kit, is it worth to replace them with resins?

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

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Hi Robert Jan,

 

Ben already said all the necessary things re Academy F-4C/D.

In case you want to do a IIAF/IRIAF F-4D the things can be even simper, as most of the Iranian Ds weren't equipped with the chin pod. Only a few were later modified with a chin pod containing a RHAW system and used as formation leaders during the Iran-Iraq war. During the first months of the conflict, the F-4D fleet was mainly used to attack important targets with LGBs, suffering many losses during these dangerous missions.

Here you will find some  more informations as well as the necessary markings:

https://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HD48025

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Rev3/2301-2400/rev2396-Hi-Decal48025/00.shtm

the pictured IRIAF airplane being credited with a MiG-21 kill, obtained in  October 1980.

 

Greetings

Diego

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Hello Diego,

Thanks for looking in Diego, appreciated. Did some more research today and I found out a lot. Thanks for mentioning the chin pod. From a decal sheet by Print Scale I can build 2 versions without and they have the LGBs as load indeed.

But Artwork I found show a F-4D from the 7th TFB based in Shiraz in 1976, with RHAW chin and Paveway 1 load. Looks the part, so options.  

Comes up another question though; did the F-4 D's  ever get a cockpit update? Or, what AM resin cockpit is to be used for the 1976 F-4Ds, early or late version? Knowing they had full support & supplies during this period.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

Edited by Speedy

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Hello all,

Just looking closer at pictures I found of the F-4D that caught my attention, I discovered they had slatted wings. How very rare! Very interesting also.

Never seen this before. anyone having a clue on this particular version?

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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Hi Robert,

 

It looks like the 48ers has the scoops and stabs in stock. The ACS scoops are HSM HMR 48011 and the stabilators are HSM HMR 48012. The stabs will fit both Academy and Hasegawa F-4s. Royale Resin’s are R051 and appear to be in stock, too. 

 

I don’t think any F-4C/D was ever fitted with slats. Was it a local IIAF mod?

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

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Hi Ben,

This quote comes from F-4.nl:" With the overthrow of the Shah in 1979 by the Islamic fundamentalist revolution, the shipment of spare parts for Iranian Phantoms was embargoed, and many planes had to be cannibalized to keep others flying".

Serial numbers of the F-4D's delivered:

67-14869/14876	McDonnell F-4D-35-MC Phantom (for Iranian AF)
67-14877/14884	McDonnell F-4D-36-MC Phantom (for Iranian AF)
68-6904/6911	McDonnell F-4D-37-MC Phantom  (for Iranian AF)
68-6912/6919	McDonnell F-4D-38-MC Phantom  (for Iranian AF)

So I guess modification by Iranians. Very interesting. Seen some other pictures too with slatted F-4Ds. Also the white antenna on the fuselage is very interesting. No registration number on the vertical stabilator, replaced by IRIAF. Experimental Airframe? I guess so.

Thanks for the tip on the Hypersonic items, ordered them at 48ers.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

 

Edited by Speedy

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Hi Robert,

 

Interesting! All I can find on Google are F-4Es with slats and TISEO. All of the Ds I'm finding have the original leading edge flaps. Do you have a link to any photos of slatted Ds? It might be fun to poke the folks on the F-4 Google group with a little trivia. 😈

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

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Hi Ben,

What I was thinking about, you read minds? There is some creative deviation involving block 37 & 38. Will carry my reference in to Imgur and post them here.

Wait for it as they say. It has a reason why they suddenly appear. change of powers and development. I found a F-4 modelling geek site who did a conversion from a J to a D. Changed the cockpit and voila, an almost 100% Iranian D. Like I said, takes a few moments to upload etc..

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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Here we go:

NN7jUAk.jpg

AJxFMnC.jpg

 

The above F-4D is such a beauty, worth building in 1/32 or 1/48. I love those subjects.

 

Hp6IwRF.jpg

 

Same airframe, look how clean she looks even after so many years in service. With slatted wings.

3TU9DZ0.jpg

 

For the last picture, just watch the white antenna. This airframe is, I think a total new F-4D concept from the eighties and captured flying, i think in 2005 over Teheran. Bro Numbers are not visible anymore. From the other pictures you can see they are still there, Left hand side is English, right hand side Persian. Registration of the airframes had a 3 time revision over the years. Found the link to figure that out, but lost it  for the time being. Will have to search in my memory for that. Now I also need to learn Persian, because a neat site did pop this afternoon from Iran. see if my contact in Holland is still there, LOL.

Very interested in what the Geeks can tell us, LOL again.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

 

Edited by Speedy

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The Buro Number 3-6713 is available on a FCM decal sheet by the way, but In already decided to go with the one I ordered from Print Scale for my 1/48 build.

But it is very tempting to order another decal sheet from TECHMOD, because they do also a F-4D with no chin pod in 1/32, (that is exactly the part that set my Vietnam F-4D build on a hold, because I ruined that piece).

Also found this nice piece of artwork:

SWJqMiy.png

The airframe with the LORAN is cool. The RHAW version is very rare, only 4 were deployed. SUU23A goes under the first 2  blocks 35 & 36 as delivered from September 1967. I'm freaking out seeing this, so cool.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

Edited by Speedy

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The Tecmod decals are rather nice.........The warning stripes are painted however.

 

 

nUtYEF4.jpg

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Hello Phantom,

Nice to see this airframe from the seventies. Did you go for aftermarket on this one, in particular the radome? Better ask, is this a D or converted J?

Found out that the Print Scale decal has a wrong Buro Number for the 3-602. They come up with 67 14370 instead of 67 14870, which is correct.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

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2 hours ago, Speedy said:

Here we go:

 

 

Hello,

 

sorry for "killing" your dreams, but this is a regular F-4D with the so called "hard-wing"!

The hard wing has trailing edge and leading edge flaps as seen on the pics you posted.

 

You can find the slated wing on the F-4E/F/G and in a slightly different version on the F-4S. There also were a few late RF-4E's with slated wings.

Very early F-4E's (and the Japanese F-4E's...) still had the leading edge flaps.

 

This is just the short explanation of the F-4 "wing-story".....

 

 

Best regards, 

Jens

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Yep, those are LE Flaps, not Slats.

 

Those pics also show why I and some others call the "inner flaps" out differently than younger modelers do. In our time, there were "inner, center, and outer" LE Flaps,,,,and in later years, the younger guys just call them inner and outer, because in their time, the old center flap became the inner, to them. (mostly a Navair thing, I guess)

 

I think it is safe to say that ALL Phantoms had movable surfaces on the leading edge the wings, some had LE Flaps, and some had LE Slats,,,,,,,,I don't know of any that had a true Hard LE on it's wings. (I'd love to see one and built it, though, if some test bird had nothing moving there) 

 

Edit, too bad, I was waiting for the pics, hoping to see a Slatted F-4D,,,,,,It would have been a really cool aircraft to add to the "Phantom Ringers" collection.

Edited by Rex

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Jens beat me to it! 😄  Leading edge "slats" vs "flaps" often causes confusion, since the two terms are not interchangeable. Here are a couple of great videos that show the difference between leading edge slat and leading edge flap operation:

F-4 leading edge slat operation

F-4 leading edge flap operation (3:40 - 3:50) 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

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3 hours ago, Speedy said:

Hello Phantom,

Nice to see this airframe from the seventies. Did you go for aftermarket on this one, in particular the radome? Better ask, is this a D or converted J?

Found out that the Print Scale decal has a wrong Buro Number for the 3-602. They come up with 67 14370 instead of 67 14870, which is correct.

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan

 

 

It is the Tamiya C/D...Just did not add the under nose sensors. Added putty to the hole and sanded smooth.

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12 hours ago, onescale said:

sorry for "killing" your dreams, but this is a regular F-4D with the so called "hard-wing"!

Well it is not killing my dream LOL. I just saw this for the first time. Never knew a 'hard wing design' had a moveable leading edge.

What I can think of it must have a speed reducing function or is there a better explanation? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

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19 hours ago, Rex said:

I was waiting for the pics, hoping to see a Slatted F-4D,,,,,,

 

 Come on Rex, you knew (!) that wasn't gonna happen. :coolio:

 

 

I don't know of any that had a true Hard LE on it's wings.  

 

Yes, but the VX-4 Bi-Centennial F-4J had fixed LE slats (as well as an F-4B/N radome).

 

4097L.jpg

 

Gene K

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11 hours ago, Speedy said:

Well it is not killing my dream LOL. I just saw this for the first time. Never knew a 'hard wing design' had a moveable leading edge.

What I can think of it must have a speed reducing function or is there a better explanation? 

 

Kind regards,

 

Robert Jan 

 

Hi Robert,

 

The original design was to reduce approach speed for carrier operations. The hard wing jets had a Boundary Layer Control System that blew bleed air from the engines through slots that were exposed when the leading and trailing edge flaps were lowered. This kept the boundary layer "stuck" to the wings longer and further reduced approach speeds. In the video of the F-4D I linked above, you can see one of the ground crewmen running his hand over the break between the LE flaps and the wing to check that the BLCS was blowing air. The F-104 Starfighter had a similar system.

 

The conversion to leading edge slats was done to increase maneuverability. They accepted a slight increase in approach speed for better maneuverability. The BLCS was deleted in slatted jets. For takeoff and landing, the slats would extend when the trailing edge flaps were lowered, just like you see on an airliner. With the flaps up, the slats would cycle automatically, based on the jet's angle of attack. 

 

Cheers!

 

Ben

 

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Ah, but, Gene,,,,,,,,you gotta admit it would have been cool to have something like that discovered in 2018.

 

As for that famous VX-4 bird,,,,,,,it is possible to build a "Ringer configuration of that Ringer." Instead of being just another guy with that BuNo in that paint scheme, I am building her from before that, she had a more conventional paint scheme, with some "testing Red" panels on her, and the original "Lead nosed" F-4J radome with no ECM on the bottom, and was seen with the Slats, and with and without a nose probe for instruments.

 

Wasn't that aircraft configured with fixed outer slats, movable middle slats, and pinned inboard flaps? (I'm not sitting near my notes right now)

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44 minutes ago, Rex said:

Wasn't that aircraft configured with fixed outer slats, movable middle slats, and pinned inboard flaps? (I'm not sitting near my notes right now)

 

Rex,

 

It was one of the YF-4J aircraft that served as the slat prototype for the F-4S.  So yes, the inner flaps would have been inactivated, and the slats (inboard and out) were welded out ... accordingly the airplane did not have the slat actuator fairings under the wings. That's as much as my failing read-write brain can access ... please let me know after you check your notes what's wrong/right (my refs are inaccessible).

 

Also, not sure how soon after the bi-centennial scheme that the slats were removed, but I don't think they were on very long.

 

Gene K

 

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Okay Gene, I am back from where the other books and notes are. (I was in the "Skyhawk room" when I was posting from memory)

 

So, I looked at my notes for 153088 before she got the Bicentennial paint job. I didn't believe my notes, so I looked up the photos I had noted in them.

 

As unbelievable as this sounds to you and I, 153088, in the Light Gull Gray  over White scheme, Red vertical and stabs, white rudder, barber pole Instrument probe on the plain early F-4J/F-4D nose. (no ECM at rear bottom) open ACLS door, rear flaps down, fixed outerwing slats, mid wing slats with actuators under the wing, and drooped inner wing LE flaps. (deployed for landing)

 

And I swear it looks like it had the early stabs too, I don't see the slots. (sort of makes sense, inner LE Flaps went together with non-slotted stabs as a set,,,,but on a Lead nosed F-4J?? At least the puppy had F-4J engines, lol.)

 

When I get back out of the Skyhawk room and into the other modeling room,,,,,,,I am moving that Ringer up to the top of the list.

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