Jump to content

A-6E Refueling Buddy Store & Ordnance Used Together


Recommended Posts

To all you Intruder experts out there, I'm looking for any reference material that shows an A-6E with a buddy store and any combination of serious ordnance. After looking at a ton of pics on the internet, I've only come across two pics with the subject combination; one carrying MK 20 Rockeys and the other a couple of the small blue practice bombs which I believe are 25 pounds ea.  For my current build, I'll be adding one GBU and maybe a couple of Rockeys. I'm considering adding a buddy store, however I'm not sure if that load would be a no-no.

 

Thanks

-Elmo

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks to all for your feedback. The pics confirm my suspicion that there were no restrictions using the combination, I just needed the substantiation. Furthermore, I assume the main reason you don't see a buddy store used very often when ordnance is carried on some or all wing hard points is that the centerline station is better served carrying extra fuel.

 

Cheers

Elmo

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rex, that's a great point! I was under the impression the store innards were made up solely of the mechanisms that allow it to transfer fuel and wasn't a fuel tank in itself. I found some on-line reference information on another buddy store, 31-301 series, and it has an internal capacity of 300 gallons. That said, I assume the D-704 is indeed a tank as well. If so, that invalidates my theory of the preferance to use an actual purpose built tank in lieu of a buddy store on the centreline station when hauling ordnance. 

 

Cheers

Elmo

Link to post
Share on other sites

The D-704 did in fact carry 300 gallons of fuel.

 

The reason why you don't see that many pics with A-6's with buddy stores and weapons is because there was a limited number available  so they were usually reserved for the Airwing's dedicated tankers and not the bombers.

 

Usually a carrier would have about 7 or 8 buddy stores on board, each A-7 squadron would have two tankers and there was always one or two down in the hanger going through maintenance so that left a few for the A-6 squadron to supplement the KA-6D's (usually 3 or 4 assigned per squadron).

Link to post
Share on other sites

When I cruised with VA-115, they had specific A-6E’s that had the ARS on the centerline and were fragged to the mission or recovery tanker roll as we were in VS-21. All of our S-3’s had the ARS on our left wing pylon, but only a handful of Intruders. Typically those of us allocated to tanker duty didn’t stray too far from the carrier, but in between cycles could still go out and do proficiency training with practice bombs or act as SSC-ASuW overwatch where we carried live ordnance. Examples are the pics of the A-6’s with blue practice bombs and the SWIP A-6 with the IR Maverick on the wing. In the Gulf every S-3 launched with 2 live MK-82’s in the bomb bay and a ARS because we always had recovery tanker duty. Even when not fragged for tanker duty, every S-3 launched and did a package check (so did the intruders) so CAG knew what ARS’s were working. After the check you proceeded out on your primary mission and the tanker remained overhead. No matter what, that ARS carried about 2500# of fuel and we used it, consolidated it into another tanker, or dumped it as you could only land with a full ARS, or a ARS with less than 500#’s of gas. Tanker Ops above a carrier could be very dynamic, and vital the more Hornets you had in the airwing. I think those numbers are right, it’s been a few years. I remember a few times us and the A-6 tankers going out with MK-76’s and bombing the smoke buoys we put in the water. 

Cheers

Collin

Link to post
Share on other sites

Collin,

Thanks for sharing your experience while attached to VA-115. When doing research to determine if the buddy store/live ordnance combination was ever used, I mainly found pics where the store was used with either multiple wing tanks as you would expect or MER's with or without practice bombs. This of course led me to believe that maybe live ordnance was a no-no; however, I could not come up with a logical explanation as to why that would be the case. I eventually found a pic of a Blue Blasters A-6 carrying a buddy store while dropping MK 20 Rockeye bombs over an island. The pic answered my basic question regarding any restrictions using the combination; however, since the bombs were being dropped over an island on what seemed to be a practice mission, I then questioned whether the live ordnance/buddy store combination would be a realistic load during wartime.

 

Anyway, the feedback you and everyone else here have provided is enough substantiation to confirm the combination was allowed. 

 

 

Regards

-Elmo

Link to post
Share on other sites

Buddy store on a A-6 or S-3 was just a fuel tank... no impact on carrying ordnance (live or intert).  The mission use of the aircraft (with the buddy store) is what dictated what that aircraft would do on the cycle it was launched.  

 

During wartime.... we all would have carried the buddy store if they were available.  Our alert loadout in VS-21 was a buddy store, 2 x MK-82 slick in the BB, and 3 x MK-20/FMU-140 fuzed on the other wing pylon. Other dedicated tanker birds just had the MK-82's.  Later those ROCKEYE could be swapped out with Harpoon or AGM-65F if needed.  A-6's had similiar loadouts, but normally a MER (or two) with ROCKEYE's and a GBU-12.  They had to watch "come aboard" weight, so that is why you see some A-6's with only a bomb or two on a MER.  

 

For normal ops from the boat...the A-6 burned more fuel than a S-3.  For that reason you would see two other drop tanks on a tanker fragged A-6 to have fuel available for the entire cycle.  S-3's sipped so little gas, we had plenty of fuel to "give" with our internal and two drops for a single cycle, and would normally join up with another S-3 and consolidate/suck away their fuel (if they were fat) so they we always had plenty of gas in the overhead.  

 

My first few cruises with A-6's we would dump tons of fuel, by the time I left Japan and we lost the A-6's/gained an extra Hornet squadron....we weren't dumping anyting and just ran a daisy chain of S-3's swapping gas back and forth.  Complicated...but fun.

 

Cheers

Collin

Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing you need to remember, what time frame you are doing.

 

The S-3's didn't start tanking until after Desert Storm, when all the A-7's were gone and the Navy started to retire the K/A-6's. Once all the A-7's left and the K/A-6's started to wind down the S-3 took over to fill the tanker role and didn't have to "share" buddy stores with anyone else. From the 70's to the early 90's, the Navy had more squadrons/carriers so there was less buddy stores allotted per carrier. After 92/93, as squadrons/Airwings were decomm'ed more buddy stores were freed up for the carriers still around so those Airwings that survived the 90's budget crunch were able to have more buddy stores. In the 70's and 80's we had 14 - 15 carriers, by the mid 90's we were down to 11  (IIRC), that freed up around 30+ buddy stores to be passed around.

 

So, depending on what time frame you are doing will determine if it was normal to have a buddy store on the centerline.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Collin,

Thanks again for providing some of your in-depth knowledge on the subject; it serves as edification for those of us who care about the configuration of our models being correct. 

 

GW8345,

Your point is valid indeed. As I'm building a composite wing A-6 with either markings from VA-75 or VA-34 during the early 90's, it's something I'll have to take into account. 

 

Thanks

Elmo

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

One thing you need to remember, what time frame you are doing.

 

The S-3's didn't start tanking until after Desert Storm, when all the A-7's were gone and the Navy started to retire the K/A-6's. Once all the A-7's left and the K/A-6's started to wind down the S-3 took over to fill the tanker role and didn't have to "share" buddy stores with anyone else. From the 70's to the early 90's, the Navy had more squadrons/carriers so there was less buddy stores allotted per carrier. After 92/93, as squadrons/Airwings were decomm'ed more buddy stores were freed up for the carriers still around so those Airwings that survived the 90's budget crunch were able to have more buddy stores. In the 70's and 80's we had 14 - 15 carriers, by the mid 90's we were down to 11  (IIRC), that freed up around 30+ buddy stores to be passed around.

 

So, depending on what time frame you are doing will determine if it was normal to have a buddy store on the centerline.

Spot on. Mid 90’s until ‘96-‘97, we were one of the last in CVW-5 with S-3’s and straight A-6E’s as tankers (no KA-6’s by that point). You couldn’t swing a dead cat without hitting multiple tankers in the overhead for any given cycle. We would launch the primary and spare tankers for both squadrons a lot for late night recoveries. You could have 2-3 S-3’s and another 1-3 A-6’s in the overhead tanker pattern at night “hawking” everyone that came down the case 3 chute (we had more buddy stores than the A-6’s anyway).  If nobody boltered or needed gas, on came the dumps as we all just pissed out thousands of pounds of gas to make our own trap weight. After the Intruders left the AirWing, we got more disciplined with our gas and didn’t dump near as much. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, GW8345 said:

One thing you need to remember, what time frame you are doing.

 

The S-3's didn't start tanking until after Desert Storm, when all the A-7's were gone and the Navy started to retire the K/A-6's. 


I'm sitting comfortably in my armchair :rolleyes: looking at a picture in "Gulf Air War Debrief" by World Airpower Journal  (p.73) of an S-3B from VS-22 trailing a refueling drogue from a buddy store as an A-7E from VA-72 lines up for a plug.  The photo caption states S-3s were used to augment KA-6Ds during DS but it doesn't explicitly state the photo is from DS.

 

I also remember hearing a story about an S-3 that dropped a refueling store (or was it just an external tank?) on an Iraqi ship, sinking it.  My Google-Fu is weak on this one, I can't find any info on when this occurred, Desert Storm or later...

Link to post
Share on other sites

Colling, BIG thanks for all the info regarding Gulf war, gotta write it down and put it on my site (with your permission). Was 2xMk.82 in BB practice for EVERY S-3 in Gulf ? Or was it unit specific ? I would like to update my loadout info aswell 🙂

BIG thanks !

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, JakubJakepilot said:

Colling, BIG thanks for all the info regarding Gulf war, gotta write it down and put it on my site (with your permission). Was 2xMk.82 in BB practice for EVERY S-3 in Gulf ? Or was it unit specific ? I would like to update my loadout info aswell 🙂

BIG thanks !

 

I wasn't in DS.  Just flew with some of the old hats that were there.  S-3 DS loadouts were variable...I've seen pictures of 5" rocket pods, TALD, ROCKEYE, S-3B with Harpoon.  I'm sure they carried 2 or 4 MK-82's in their Bomb Bays.  

 

I flew in AirWing FIVE 1995-1999, my comments reflect that period of time when we still had A-6's in the AirWing and after they went away and were replaced by a baby Hornet squadron.  

 

When CV-62 sortied to the Gulf for OSW operations...we carried 2 500# bombs in the bays as a standard S-3 loadout (along with a drop tank and ARS pod)....it was a just in case measure if something came up and someone had to drop something.    Our alert ASuW birds had 3 x ROCKEYE on a TER instead of the drop tank (but still kept the ARS on the left pylon).

 

Collin

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry for a later response. Big thanks for the info.

Regarding A-6Es in tanking role - I guess they had to have some boxes installed so they can operate the ARS. Was there any external difference between ARS capable/ARS not capable A-6E ? And, were ALL A-6Es ARS modded ? Thinking to add this info on my site, but the only option for me is to look on my pics if that specific airframe has ARS+tanks installed or not.

 

Thanks !

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...