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Hi Folks !

I have the following stuff for a late 1/72 IAF F-4E slotted (soft winged) Phantom : Hasegawa 00790 F-4E Phantom II Phabulous Phantoms  (slotted winged version), Isradecal IAF35 English full stencil set, Sky Decal 72008 with individual markings and Hebrew stencils, Maestro Models IFR probe , Aires USAF cockpit set and exhaust, Reskit wheels, Eduard 73201, FOD and mask, XMM seamless intakes.

I like to build a late, slotted winged F-4E with full English stencils, but not a Kurnass 2000 plane, because I know, that those planes are with Hebrew stencils and modernized instrument panel and I like the full stencils. Can I build from these sets a proper not Kurnass 2000 IAF soft winged plane with full English stencils with or without In Flight Refueling probe and with convencional USAF style cockpit (Aires) ? You might be able to see some pictures about it ?  And what kind of weapon can I use for this Phantom from this era when these planes flown ?

Thank You !

Edited by zkalos
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From available reference (such as Shlomo Aloni`s `Israeli F-4E Phantom Aces`), it would appear that Israeli F-4E were appearing with slats as early as May 1973 (possibly earlier), and that several F-4E with slats were in service at the outbreak of the October war, both conversions and new deliveries from the U.S (Peace Echo IV).

This meant a mix of slatted and unslatted F-4E in service at the outbreak of war, further augmented by the Nickel Grass deliveries of aircraft, still in their USAF camo, later in the war.

Source: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?/topic/293647-idf-f-4e-sabretooth-187-1973-yom-kippur-war/

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The first Kurnass 2000 conversion was carried out at the IDF/AF's Central Maintenance Unit. The first example took to the air on its maiden flight on July 15, 1987, and was formally accepted by the IDF/AF on August 11, 1987. Further upgrades were carried out by the Bedek Aviation Division of Israel Aircraft Industries, with planes being converted as they come in for their D-level maintenance overhauls. Conversions began in April of 1989. The Kurnass 2000 upgraded Phantom was first used in action in February of 1991, when a number of aircraft used laser-guided bombs against a target in Lebanon.

 Source: http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f4_41.html

 

 

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Thanks for the replies.

I forgot to write, that I like to paint model in the IAF colors, not the original USAF SEA. As I read, I can build the following plane with full USAF english stencils without Kurnass2000 modifications : hard or soft wing, original or modified gun muzzle, with or without IFR probe. Only I must find proper pictures from that plane. This is true ?

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Slatted or hard wing is an option depending on the aircraft and the time frame yes. Also the gun muzzle is referred to as the short (early) fairing or long (late) fairing just in case you talk to someone that doesn't understand. As far as the stencil's go I could not tell you for sure as I am not at home with my reference books but I want to say they would be in Hebrew. I couldn't accurately answer the IFR probe question as well right now but again, I would say Kurnass 200 upgrade.

 

The number one answer to any and all of your questions though would just be check you references, especially about the specific aircraft you are trying to depict.

 

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Thanks Whiskey !

The main question for me is : which IAF painted Phantom version (not early SEA) can I build with full english stencil (from Isradecal) ? I have hard and soft winged Phantom kits too . If You say that only hard winged IAF Phantoms wore original english stencils, and later when they was upgraded with soft wing,  after that wore only Hebrew stencils, I will build an early hard winged plane. I difficult to find pictures from early IAF F-4E , only from upgraded Kurnass2000, which I dont want to build.  I do not insist on a particular machine. No matter in which squadron flown or when it was flying.

I'm sorry if I did not make it clear, but English is not my native language.

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On 9/7/2018 at 7:02 PM, zkalos said:

Thanks Whiskey !

The main question for me is : which IAF painted Phantom version (not early SEA) can I build with full english stencil (from Isradecal) ? I have hard and soft winged Phantom kits too . If You say that only hard winged IAF Phantoms wore original english stencils, and later when they was upgraded with soft wing,  after that wore only Hebrew stencils, I will build an early hard winged plane. I difficult to find pictures from early IAF F-4E , only from upgraded Kurnass2000, which I dont want to build.  I do not insist on a particular machine. No matter in which squadron flown or when it was flying.

I'm sorry if I did not make it clear, but English is not my native language.

 

Firstly apologies for the long post coming up. It's not easy to answer such a wide ranging query in a few words. 🙂

 

From your first post the shortest answer is, all of them would have had stencils in English at some point.

 

To expand on this, Israel received both hard and soft (slatted) wing F-4Es direct from McDonnell Douglas. Delivery of 'soft winged' aircraft began in late 1972 as part of the Peace Echo IV contract so these (and  all later) aircraft will have English stencils. The Hebrew stencils were introduced at a major depot maintenance from about 1980 so any IDF/AF Phantom up to this date should only be in English. Therefore many F-4s up to 1980 and probably most of those involved in the Lebanon conflict in 1982 would still have the original factory applied scheme (except those 'Karpada' (SEA camouflaged) repainted into the standard colours). So, if you find a picture of the jet you want to do and it's dated before 1980 I would say with certainty that it has English stencils. Note that aicraft '316', the last 'Karpada' Phantom wasn't repainted into standard Israeli camouflage until 1989!
 
If a jet has the aircraft number repeated on the vari-ramps then it'll be after mid-1984 and most likely has Hebrew stencils. So, from 1984 on I'd say virtually all aircraft would have changed to Hebrew stencilling whether they were pre- or post-Kurnass 2000 standard. Any in-service pictures dated from the 1990s to mid 2000s would be of a Kurnass 2000.
 
The IFR probe was introduced in 1970 but not all aircraft were equipped with it until about 1985! The probe could be removed so it may not be visible in some photos of aircraft fitted with it.

 

For weapons, it's pretty much anything that the USAF carried although the IDF/AF seemed to prefer the M117 750lb bomb and the 1000lb Mk83 to the 500lb Mk82. Eduard make various versions of the M117 in 1/72, the 'late' type are the ones often seen: link to Eduard 1/72 M117 bombs

 

Precision Guided Munitions (PGMs) such as AGM-65, GBU-8, GBU-15 or the locally developed 'Tadmit' were introduced during the Yom Kippur War (YKW). AIM-7Es were carried until the early '80s and AIM-9Ds until supplanted by locally produced missiles such as the Python. Note that although modified late on, Israeli Phantoms didn't carry the F-15 style HPC tank on the centreline, they retained the original Royal Jet version. In the late '80s the aft tip cap was removed to improve the aerodynamics.

 

The F-4E configurations we are looking at can be summarised as follows:

 

Original delivery (1969) to mid 1972: Hard wing, English stencils. Initially coded with a two digit code (XX) then changed to 1xx or 6xx. The 6xx series were later reassigned to 1xx post-YKW.

 

Late 1972 to final 1976 deliveries: Factory fitted slatted wings, English stencils. Coded as 2xx. Note that 24 also had TISEO installed.

 

October-November 1973: Operation Nickel Grass delivered ex-USAF F-4Es in SEA camouflage, nicknamed Karpada (Toad). Mix of hard and soft wings, some of the latter had TISEO. All were coded 3xx. Last of these (316) was repainted in 1989.

 

All aircraft were modified with IFR probes from 1970 to c1985. The probes were fitted to both hard and soft winged F-4Es.

 

Modification to add slats to early aircraft introduced from 1972-73. Final aircraft was modified in 1978. The famous Kurnass 187 (with the extra-large sharkmouth) had fixed slats fitted in 1970 as part of trials to improve manoeuverability. Was later modified to the standard system, probably with the sharkmouth removed.

 

Depot maintenance from 1980 introduced revised camouflage scheme with Hebrew stencils. Aircraft number repeated on the vari-ramp from mid-1984.

 

Kurnass 2000 introduced from 1989. 52 aircraft were converted. Retired from service about 2008-09. Coded as 5xx, 6xx or 7xx depending on the original code (can be found by subtracting 400). For example 316 as mentioned above was re-coded as 716 after the upgrade.

 

As you can see the changes to Israel's Phantoms have quite a complex history which is better covered by reading the recent books on the subject. The best references for Israeli Phantoms are the Double Ugly books "Israeli Phantoms - The Kurnass in IDF/AF Service" Volumes 1 & 2. If your budget can't stretch to these then look for Isradecal's Aircraft in Detail #4 "F-4E Phantom Kurnass in IAF Service" or, for aircraft up to and including the Lebanon war, Osprey's Aircraft of the Aces #60 'Israeli F-4 Phantom II Aces'.

 

Having said all that, if you built a slatted 1xx (no TISEO) or 2xx (with/without TISEO) coded jet, with or without an IFR probe, carrying a pair of AIM-7Es, an AIM-9D on the port inner rail, 5 M117s on the inner pylons (two on the TER under the AIM-9), a 600gal centre tank (or a MER with 5 more M117s), two 370gal wing tanks and an ALQ-71/ALQ-87/ALQ-101 pod in the right forward Sparrow well you'd be okay for some point in it's history from the YKW up to the Lebanon conflict.😉

 

Good luck with the rest of your research and build. I hope the above helps with whichever aircraft you decide to do. Please show us the final result!

 

Jonathan

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Hi Weasel !

That's what I've been looking for for a long time . Thank you very much  in the name of the Phantom II fan's community for this exhaustive description.
I think every IAF phantom builder is very happy now
if They read this I have never read a summary of this topic anywhere. This subject has always been a dark spot for me.

It's difficult to find reliable information and pictures from this topicI went down this description for future use I think.  If you can put links with images, that would be the great too.  Or do I want a bit too much ? 😋

Cheers from Hungary 😉

Kálmán

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Hi Kalman

Here are my walkarounds from IAF museum(link at the bottom of my message) 

as you can see most of the retired Phantoms  have Hebrew stencils mixed with

English ones

From what I saw-many major systems' or accsess panels left with stencils

many were just overpainted,especially on top of wings and fuselage

Isaac

Edited by iaf-man
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The reason why fuze extenders were used vice proximity sensors* is because a proximity sensor can be fooled by the jungle canopy, thus causing the bomb to detonate a 100 feet above ground level (AGL). Even if you had zero delay time on the fuze, it would still bury itself into the ground at least 4 feet before the fuze functioned (called fuze function time).

 

"Radar fuzes" did not come into service until the late 80's/early 90's and they are used on CBU's (CBU-99 and CBU-78). In Vietnam (and up to modern times), bomb (GP, JDAM, LJDAM) fuzes are capable of air burst detonations with a proximity sensor. The M20, M20A1 and Mk 43 were used in Vietnam, the M20 and M20A1 were removed from service shortly after Vietnam, the Mk 43 was removed around 2008/9 (IIRC, to lazy to look up the NAR) and now the DSU-33 is used.

 

*Proximity Sensor - a proximity sensor sends a signal to the fuze to function when the sensor senses the ground at a predetermined altitude. Different sensors provided different height of burst (HOB)/height of function (HOF) capability.

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  • 5 months later...

Great info, thanks.   I need to ask about the tail stabilators.
I would like to start a Kurnass and she will be an Early, with short gun fairing, hard wing, from Bats Sqn. in YKW, 1973.

What about the stabs? 

I'm arguing that all the Kurnass were delivered with slatted stabs.  It's correct?   Or the earlies were also delivered with "flat leading edge", unslatted ones?

Thanks in advance!

 


 

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On 9/13/2018 at 8:42 PM, GW8345 said:

The reason why fuze extenders were used vice proximity sensors* is because a proximity sensor can be fooled by the jungle canopy, thus causing the bomb to detonate a 100 feet above ground level (AGL). Even if you had zero delay time on the fuze, it would still bury itself into the ground at least 4 feet before the fuze functioned (called fuze function time).

 

"Radar fuzes" did not come into service until the late 80's/early 90's and they are used on CBU's (CBU-99 and CBU-78). In Vietnam (and up to modern times), bomb (GP, JDAM, LJDAM) fuzes are capable of air burst detonations with a proximity sensor. The M20, M20A1 and Mk 43 were used in Vietnam, the M20 and M20A1 were removed from service shortly after Vietnam, the Mk 43 was removed around 2008/9 (IIRC, to lazy to look up the NAR) and now the DSU-33 is used.

 

*Proximity Sensor - a proximity sensor sends a signal to the fuze to function when the sensor senses the ground at a predetermined altitude. Different sensors provided different height of burst (HOB)/height of function (HOF) capability.

 

I thought radar/radio based fuzes where in use as early as WWII. They were used in ground and anti-aircraft artillery. They were used against the German forces in the Battle of the Bulge and against German bombers and V1's over Britain. I am certain what they use now is far more sophisticated than those early versions.

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8 hours ago, rotaliscia said:

Great info, thanks.   I need to ask about the tail stabilators.
I would like to start a Kurnass and she will be an Early, with short gun fairing, hard wing, from Bats Sqn. in YKW, 1973.

What about the stabs? 

I'm arguing that all the Kurnass were delivered with slatted stabs.  It's correct?   Or the earlies were also delivered with "flat leading edge", unslatted ones?

Thanks in advance!

 


 

Yes, you are correct, the stabilators will be slotted on an early Kurnass.

 

All production F-4Es have slotted stabilators; only the YF-4E FSD jets converted from a F-4C and F-4D (63-7445 & 65-0713) retained their original solid stabs. In fact, if you see a 'USAF' gun nose F-4 without a slotted stabilator then it's either one of these two aircraft or a Luftwaffe F-4F being flown during training in the US as part of the 49th FW. On this subject there is also a myth that the F-4EJs were originally delivered  to the JASDF without slotted stabilators, however there are several pictures of their first F-4s, 17-8301 & '302, over St Louis and on delivery to Japan clearly showing the fixed slat on the leading edge!

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

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6 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

I thought radar/radio based fuzes where in use as early as WWII. They were used in ground and anti-aircraft artillery. They were used against the German forces in the Battle of the Bulge and against German bombers and V1's over Britain. I am certain what they use now is far more sophisticated than those early versions.

You are correct.   They were known as VT fuzes and were considered one of the US’s most classified bits of technology.    Absolutely deadly against troops in the open.   

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8 hours ago, Mstor said:

 

I thought radar/radio based fuzes where in use as early as WWII. They were used in ground and anti-aircraft artillery. They were used against the German forces in the Battle of the Bulge and against German bombers and V1's over Britain. I am certain what they use now is far more sophisticated than those early versions.

I was providing information about bomb proximity sensors, artillery fuzes are totally different from bomb proximity sensors and thus what I post does not apply artillery fuzes.

 

Basically, you are comparing apples to oranges, both are a fruit but that is about it.

 

 

 

 

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32 minutes ago, GW8345 said:

I was providing information about bomb proximity sensors, artillery fuzes are totally different from bomb proximity sensors and thus what I post does not apply artillery fuzes.

 

Basically, you are comparing apples to oranges, both are a fruit but that is about it.

 

 

 

 

Point taken. Thanks.

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17 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

Yes, you are correct, the stabilators will be slotted on an early Kurnass.

 

All production F-4Es have slotted stabilators; only the YF-4E FSD jets converted from a F-4C and F-4D (63-7445 & 65-0713) retained their original solid stabs. In fact, if you see a 'USAF' gun nose F-4 without a slotted stabilator then it's either one of these two aircraft or a Luftwaffe F-4F being flown during training in the US as part of the 49th FW. On this subject there is also a myth that the F-4EJs were originally delivered  to the JASDF without slotted stabilators, however there are several pictures of their first F-4s, 17-8301 & '302, over St Louis and on delivery to Japan clearly showing the fixed slat on the leading edge!

 

HTH,

 

Jonathan

 

Chances are that Hasegawa or Fujimi messed up instruction callings or added the wrong stabs on it, could be wrong but older Hasegawa RF-4EJ comes with normal stabs and I swear that the Thunderbirds boxing I bought years ago also had them together with a mix of grey and white parts in sealed bags.

 

Because I hate myself I'll go through old Koku Fan scans and see if there are any b&w pics showing unslotted stabs on earlier EJs, even though I was planning to complete (big word) RF-4E with slatted wing research and ended up in a den of Hellenic Phantom pictures, yet I was looking for Luftwaffe slatted RF-4E pics but I can't find any😕

 

Luigi

Edited by Mizar
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9 hours ago, Mizar said:

 

Chances are that Hasegawa or Fujimi messed up instruction callings or added the wrong stabs on it, could be wrong but older Hasegawa RF-4EJ comes with normal stabs and I swear that the Thunderbirds boxing I bought years ago also had them together with a mix of grey and white parts in sealed bags.

 

Because I hate myself I'll go through old Koku Fan scans and see if there are any b&w pics showing unslotted stabs on earlier EJs, even though I was planning to complete (big word) RF-4E with slatted wing research and ended up in a den of Hellenic Phantom pictures, yet I was looking for Luftwaffe slatted RF-4E pics but I can't find any😕

 

Luigi

 

Hi Luigi,

 

I agree that it's probable that some F-4E/EJ kits may mistakenly have had unslotted stabilators put in the box to confuse the issue. I think the belief that early F-4EJs had unslotted stabs might have come from pictures of the Photo Phantoms being mixed up with the fighters due to the similar paint schemes since the RF-4s retained the plain leading edge stabs and it's not the easiest thing to identify from most angles. Here's a link to the excellent Aviation Archives blog with an posting of an illustrated McAir report:  F/RF-4 Phantom II Manufacturing Illustrations for Japan . If you look at page 31 (page 26 of the report) this shows the jigs for the slotted stabilator leading edges. I take this as definitive evidence that the F-4EJ had slotted stabs right from the beginning. Also, don't mix up the converted gun nose RF-4EJs and their camera nose RF-4E siblings. It appears that when the JASDF RF-4E order was being considered everyone (seemingly including McDonnell Douglas: RF-4EJ Phantom II for Japan Report) assumed they'd have a 'J' suffix, like the fighters, before they were built and delivered. Ever since then many publications have incorrectly referred to the JASDF camera nosed Phantoms as a 'RF-4EJ'. However since all JASDF RF-4Es were built in St Louis they have always been identified as a RF-4E by the Japanese.

 

About slatted RF-4Es, you''ll only find Greek and Turkish Phantoms so equipped. The slatted RF-4Es were an 'end of run' order just before McAir production finished in 1979. Since the tooling was set up for the F-4E it was simpler to build them with slatted wings. The stabs remained unslotted though, like all preceding RF-4Cs and RF-4Es. If you want to build a Luftwaffe RF-4E unfortunately it'll have to have a 'hard wing' 😉

 

HTH.

 

Jonathan

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22 hours ago, Wild Weasel V said:

 

Hi Luigi,

 

I agree that it's probable that some F-4E/EJ kits may mistakenly have had unslotted stabilators put in the box to confuse the issue. I think the belief that early F-4EJs had unslotted stabs might have come from pictures of the Photo Phantoms being mixed up with the fighters due to the similar paint schemes since the RF-4s retained the plain leading edge stabs and it's not the easiest thing to identify from most angles. Here's a link to the excellent Aviation Archives blog with an posting of an illustrated McAir report:  F/RF-4 Phantom II Manufacturing Illustrations for Japan . If you look at page 31 (page 26 of the report) this shows the jigs for the slotted stabilator leading edges. I take this as definitive evidence that the F-4EJ had slotted stabs right from the beginning. Also, don't mix up the converted gun nose RF-4EJs and their camera nose RF-4E siblings. It appears that when the JASDF RF-4E order was being considered everyone (seemingly including McDonnell Douglas: RF-4EJ Phantom II for Japan Report) assumed they'd have a 'J' suffix, like the fighters, before they were built and delivered. Ever since then many publications have incorrectly referred to the JASDF camera nosed Phantoms as a 'RF-4EJ'. However since all JASDF RF-4Es were built in St Louis they have always been identified as a RF-4E by the Japanese.

 

About slatted RF-4Es, you''ll only find Greek and Turkish Phantoms so equipped. The slatted RF-4Es were an 'end of run' order just before McAir production finished in 1979. Since the tooling was set up for the F-4E it was simpler to build them with slatted wings. The stabs remained unslotted though, like all preceding RF-4Cs and RF-4Es. If you want to build a Luftwaffe RF-4E unfortunately it'll have to have a 'hard wing' 😉

 

HTH.

 

Jonathan

 

Thanks Jonathan, by RF-4EJ I always mean the normal F-4EJ equipped with reconnaissance pods, as for slatted RF-4E I noticed that Hellenic RF-4s have more ECM gigs than normal RF-4E and also have a different serial number, I can still have to find pictures of Turkish RF-4E with slats and I don't remember seeing any of them sporting slats when from time to time come to Decimomannu for exercise, must be rare sights

 

Luigi

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