F-4 Phantom AF,Navy, Marine versions in Vietnam

[stalal]

I was interested in building two versions of Phantom in 1/48 scale.

 

- gull gray carrier based camo

- overall SEA camo 

 

I m trying to figure out which model kits will be most suitable for each of these and what aftermarket decal options I will have. 

 

I m biased toward Hasegawa kits but I m not sure about what kind of issues I could face in building the kit to represent accurate versions.

 

The next step will be identifying the correct and realistic loadouts by era they were flown in. 

[Slartibartfast]

Since nobody yet does an Navair F-4B out of the box, look for a J or S that tickles your fancy.  USAF used C, D, E models in Nam.  Off the top of my head, if Air Force had a wrap-around scheme for the Phantom, it would be rare. I can only picture gray-bottomed F-4s from memory.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Slartibartfast

[Ben Brown]

Academy makes the best F-4B in 1/48, although it has a few issues that can be fixed with aftermarket bits. Hasegawa’s is much older and has raised panel lines.

 

Zoukei-Mura, Hasegawa, and Academy all make nice F-4Js. Personally, I’d go with Z-M or Hasegawa + aftermarket, due to cost. Once you spend the $$ on the Academy kit to bring it up to the same level of accuracy and detail as the Z-M kit, it’s as expensive as the Z-M kit. Do the same with the Hasegawa J, and you come out spending slightly less than the Z-M (based on my own admittedly shaky calculations 🤔 ). The F -4S was a post-Vietnam version that I don’t think ever flew in Gull Gray/White cameo (except for the one repainted for the NASM).

 

USAF SEA camo, Hasegawa for the long nose versions, Z-M for the F-4C/D. Academy’s needs a lot of aftermarket and Monogram’s and Hasegawa’s have raised panel lines.

 

Ben

Edited September 18, 2018 by Ben Brown

[stalal]

24 minutes ago, Ben Brown said:

Academy makes the best F-4B in 1/48, although it has a few issues that can be fixed with aftermarket bits. Hasegawa’s is much older and has raised panel lines.

 

Zoukei-Mura, Hasegawa, and Academy all make nice F-4Js. Personally, I’d go with Z-M or Hasegawa + aftermarket, due to cost. Once you spend the $$ on the Academy kit to bring it up to the same level of accuracy and detail as the Z-M kit, it’s as expensive as the Z-M kit. Do the same with the Hasegawa J, and you come out spending slightly less than the Z-M (based on my own admittedly shaky calculations 🤔 ). The F -4S was a post-Vietnam version that I don’t think ever flew in Gull Gray/White cameo (except for the one repainted for the NASM).

 

USAF SEA camo, Hasegawa for the long nose versions, Z-M for the F-4C/D. Academy’s needs a lot of aftermarket and Monogram’s and Hasegawa’s have raised panel lines.

 

Ben

 

Thanks for great info. 

 

So which Hasegawa versions have raised panel lines? All of them or just F-4C/D?

[Mstor]

11 minutes ago, stalal said:

 

Thanks for great info. 

 

So which Hasegawa versions have raised panel lines? All of them or just F-4C/D?

 

Here ya go. All you ever wanted to know about Hasegawa F-4 (and other aircraft) kits but were afraid (yea, not likely) to ask...

 

http://modelingmadness.com/splfeat/kr/has48d.htm

 

[Janissary]

In the NAVY, I think the J is the most interesting with various decal choices. I'd go with ZM. The following site is a must see for all your NAVY needs:

http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VF-squadrons.htm

 

In the AF, SEA can be found on the C/D and E obviously. But if feeling adventurous, USAF ANG has some cool schemes, including the Euro I scheme. 

Edited September 18, 2018 by Janissary

[11bee]

10 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

Since nobody yet does an Navair F-4B out of the box, look for a J or S that tickles your fancy.  USAF used C, D, E models in Nam.  Off the top of my head, if Air Force had a wrap-around scheme for the Phantom, it would be rare. I can only picture gray-bottomed F-4s from memory.

No wrap around scheme for the F-4 during the war.   Only Navy-style and SEA with grey (and a few) black bottoms.   Wrap-around SEA didn’t appear until early 80’s.   

[Sgt Shultz II]

I think (but I'm not sure) most Air Force SEA birds were originally Navy scheme Gray over White and the camo was sprayed in country so the bottoms would be white and later production versions (F-4D/E) had the light gray bottoms with the SEA camo from the factory.

[Rex]

F-4C USAF had both SEA schemes.

 

The scheme was invented after Vietnam started, and the Light Gull Gray over White aircraft were given the two Greens and the Tan scheme while keeping the  White undersides.

 

Sometime just before the tail codes were invented, the bottoms of F-4C got the very Light Gray, 36622, color added to them.

 

Quick and dirty rule of thumb for F-4C SEA, if tail codes are present, Light Gray bottom, if no tail codes, but the Serial Number was on the tail, look at the contrast between the lower wing Insignia or front landing gear or door interiors to decide if White or Camouflage Gray is the bottom color.

[stalal]

16 hours ago, Janissary said:

In the NAVY, I think the J is the most interesting with various decal choices. I'd go with ZM. The following site is a must see for all your NAVY needs:

http://www.seaforces.org/usnair/VF-squadrons.htm

 

In the AF, SEA can be found on the C/D and E obviously. But if feeling adventurous, USAF ANG has some cool schemes, including the Euro I scheme. 

 

Thanks for the info.

 

The link does not work and I have tried different computers. May be its access is restricted to US only. 

[Janissary]

54 minutes ago, stalal said:

 

Thanks for the info.

 

The link does not work and I have tried different computers. May be its access is restricted to US only. 

 

Interesting. It works on my side for sure (U.S.). Check http://www.seaforces.org . It has info on many international navies. The whole site does not seem to be one that would need to be blocked out, but you never know...

[stalal]

10 minutes ago, Janissary said:

 

Interesting. It works on my side for sure (U.S.). Check http://www.seaforces.org . It has info on many international navies. The whole site does not seem to be one that would need to be blocked out, but you never know...

 

'403 Forbidden'. This is the error I get. I dont think access is allowed to this link beyond territorial USA . 

[11bee]

My understanding was that there was no difference between white and the “light grey” undersurface on the SEA schemes.   Both colors are white.  Is this not correct?   

[Janissary]

18 minutes ago, 11bee said:

My understanding was that there was no difference between white and the “light grey” undersurface on the SEA schemes.   Both colors are white.  Is this not correct?   

There is a slight difference. The SEA light grey is FS 36622. It's an off white, kind of more 'saturated'. here is how Gunze Hobby Aqueous H-311 (FS 36622) looks like (no preshading underneath). You can tell the difference as the wheel wells are pure white:

 

 

The same can be achieved mixing say trance amounts of Xf-19 in X-2.

Edited September 19, 2018 by Janissary

[stalal]

39 minutes ago, Janissary said:

There is a slight difference. The SEA light grey is FS 36622. It's an off white, kind of more 'saturated'. here is how Gunze Hobby Aqueous H-311 (FS 36622) looks like (no preshading underneath). You can tell the difference as the wheel wells are pure white:

 

 

The same can be achieved mixing say trance amounts of Xf-19 in X-2.

 

The Gunze color H311 looks accurate for that grey shade. The Gunze recommended color for US Marines/Navy/Air Force white is H316. Its a great color in my experience for US related aircraft subjects including weapons. May be not for most but I m biased towards Gunze colors when it comes to painting aircraft. 

[Slartibartfast]

23 hours ago, Ben Brown said:

Academy makes the best F-4B in 1/48, although it has a few issues that can be fixed with aftermarket bits. Hasegawa’s is much older and has raised panel lines.

 

Does the Academy kit have the thin wings? I thought that was a failure on all F-4B kits except the RF-4B.

[Rex]

Probably no difference in the two colors for online model photo taking and posting.

 

But in 1/1* and photos of 1/1, you can see the difference between the two main Whites, and Camouflage Gray, and they are different. (heck, in 1/1, you can see the difference between the many actual colors called White over the years)

 

Regarding F-4B, you can trust Ben to know https://modelingmadness.com/review/viet/us/usaf/brownf4b.htm

 

 

*1/1, that is the area that doesn't much affect models anymore, it used to be called "real life", now it is just "off line."

Edited September 19, 2018 by Rex

[Ben Brown]

1 hour ago, Slartibartfast said:

 

Does the Academy kit have the thin wings? I thought that was a failure on all F-4B kits except the RF-4B.

Yup, the Academy kit is a true thin wing F-4B. The Hasegawa RF-4B depicts one of the 10 jets that were built with the F-4J’s thick wing.

 

Ben

[Rex]

Ben, does any Hasegawa have the alternate nose,,,,so that the "Last Three" can be built OOB?

[jonbryon]

1 hour ago, Rex said:

Ben, does any Hasegawa have the alternate nose,,,,so that the "Last Three" can be built OOB?

 

Yes, the original boxing does, at least. That's the one with the green-tailed gull grey airframe on the front. 

 

Isn't it the last 12 RF-4Bs built...my memory must be failing me...

 

Jon

[Rex]

No, some of us thought "12" because of a couple of places that said that. (we had a long discussion about it on ARC, and I was one of the guys corrected)

But, it was only the two last batches of 5 each. And the last 3 of the second batch of 5 got the rounded noses.

 

So, yeah, you'll see 12 in print and on the web,,,,,but, it really is just the small group that were made in Blocks after the F-4B style of tooling had it's use discontinued. 

 

But, as with all things Phantom, the RF-4B had many upgrades and versions caused by that, all under the one designation of RF-4B. There were small upgrades, and larger ones like SURE (added the F-4N style DECM on the intake shoulders), and SLEP, which gave F-4J/S style engines to aircraft that started with F-4B style engines.

 

So, today, we can't say "RF-4B had ________", we have to say "RF-4B BuNo before x date had __________, and then later had this ______ added, and then this ________"

 

Thin winged RF-4B could be Original as Built, small upgrades added,  then SURE, then SLEP,  thick wing had an evolution to them too. And the color schemes crossed over with the mods, causing any one BuNo to have seven or eight "looks" to them, without counting the changes in Tail Codes or tail trim color designs.

[Whiskey]

Gotta love aviation progression....

[Rex]

You got that right, Zach.

 

It has created a ton of fun for me.

 

Progression is what expanded my collection of thin winged Phantoms into a large group that don't all look like each other structurally . An F-4N with no DECM sitting next to a "normal" F-4N, all the sub-types of fit on the F-4B from the earliest bare bones versions up to the ones just before the survivors got Bee Lined into N's, the slatless F-4S, the DECM F-4Js, and enough differences in RF-4Bs to make them a separate study all on their own.

 

F-4D variations are just as much fun, with all of the this one was wired for this, that one was wired for that, this nose, that nose, etc.

 

 

[jonbryon]

8 hours ago, Rex said:

No, some of us thought "12" because of a couple of places that said that. (we had a long discussion about it on ARC, and I was one of the guys corrected)

But, it was only the two last batches of 5 each. And the last 3 of the second batch of 5 got the rounded noses.

 

So, yeah, you'll see 12 in print and on the web,,,,,but, it really is just the small group that were made in Blocks after the F-4B style of tooling had it's use discontinued. 

 

But, as with all things Phantom, the RF-4B had many upgrades and versions caused by that, all under the one designation of RF-4B. There were small upgrades, and larger ones like SURE (added the F-4N style DECM on the intake shoulders), and SLEP, which gave F-4J/S style engines to aircraft that started with F-4B style engines.

 

So, today, we can't say "RF-4B had ________", we have to say "RF-4B BuNo before x date had __________, and then later had this ______ added, and then this ________"

 

Thin winged RF-4B could be Original as Built, small upgrades added,  then SURE, then SLEP,  thick wing had an evolution to them too. And the color schemes crossed over with the mods, causing any one BuNo to have seven or eight "looks" to them, without counting the changes in Tail Codes or tail trim color designs.

 

You learn something new every day 🙂

 

I'm building the Hasegawa 1/48 RF-4B at the moment and I think I've got all the mods corrects for 7347 in 1979 as a thick-winged post-SURE pre-SLEP airframe in overall gull grey. Hasegawa seem to have got quite a few bits and pieces wrong.

 

Jon

[stalal]

If I ask you guys who have built Phantom kits.

 

What will be your opinion about 1/32 Tamiya Phantom series? I was interested in either their F-4J or F-4C/D kit. 

 

There arent a lot reviews about their F-4C/D kit. 

Edited September 20, 2018 by stalal