Early B-52G/H radome

[serendip]

22 hours ago, Teeradej said:

 

Sorry but they are on another recent thread about this. Here it is LINKY.

Thanks Teeradej, that's fine.

 

Marc.

 

 

 

[Dutch]

6 hours ago, serendip said:

Dutch,

Thanks for the feedback. I know you're a bit of a knowledge expert on this but the pictures above and the link below someone provided on BritModeller do seem to indicate otherwise.

 

Do me a favour and let me know how you know for sure there was no change. Pictures seem to indicate it occurred when the ALQ-117 antennae were added not the EVS system.

 

https://www.markstyling.com/b52s5.htm

 

 

 

Marc, I could be wrong.  Often am. My father in law once said of my oldest son, "Often wrong, but seldom in doubt."  I can't help but think that I wore off on him just a little.  It has been awhile since I talked with my Boeing-Wichita B-52 friend.  I will get a definitive answer from him. In the meantime the link you sent merely shows an artist's renditions. If you look closely at drawings #45, 46, & 47, you will notice that the back of the radome ends at a different cockpit window frame in all three drawings. I will check. Kind regards. Dutch 

[serendip]

On 6/13/2020 at 3:17 PM, Dutch said:

Marc, I could be wrong.  Often am. My father in law once said of my oldest son, "Often wrong, but seldom in doubt."  I can't help but think that I wore off on him just a little.  It has been awhile since I talked with my Boeing-Wichita B-52 friend.  I will get a definitive answer from him. In the meantime the link you sent merely shows an artist's renditions. If you look closely at drawings #45, 46, & 47, you will notice that the back of the radome ends at a different cockpit window frame in all three drawings. I will check. Kind regards. Dutch 

Thanks so much Dutch, I look forward to what you can dig up. I noticed the shifted datum on the outlines Teeradej provided also but nonetheless there seems (thats the keyword here) to be a difference. The Aerofax book says pretty much the same thing. The ALQ-117 equipped 'Gs and 'Hs look like a shark with a bad case of underbite.

 

O yeah, and if I had a penny for every time I was wrong......

 

Marc.

 

 

[Dutch]

Marc, Okay, here is what I found out. Yes, the B-52G/H radome bottom was shortened, i.e. the break was moved forward so many inches and an internal frame built so that the EVS/LLTV could be hung.  I don't know the exact measurement, but it appears to be the width of the middle side cockpit window. The trailing fairings are mostly hollow and for aerodynamic streamlining. Same holds true for the two bumps attached to the radome, evident when the radome is opened.  HTH! K/r,  Dutch 

Edited July 15, 2020 by Dutch

[serendip]

14 hours ago, Dutch said:

Marc, Okay, here is what I found out. Yes, the B-52G/H radome bottom was shortened, i.e. the break was moved forward so many inches and an internal frame built so that the EVS/LLTV could be hung.The  I don't know the exact measurement, but it appears to be the width of the middle side cockpit window. The trailing fairings are mostly hollow and for aerodynamic streamlining. Same holds true for the two bumps attached to the radome, evident when the radome is opened.  HTH! K/r,  Dutch 

Thanks so much for checking Dutch.

 

Kind regards,

 

Marc.

 

 

 

[serendip]

So I think it's best to not go for an early H in bare metal as there's really no great documentation for the differences with the EVS equipped aircraft regarding the radome profile.

 

HPH only offers the current all over grey scheme which to my mind is not the most exciting ever. 

 

I'll be going with SIOP colours with a MK. 82 or ALCM loadout. Does anyone have any idea which loadout was more common in the SIOP era and where any good pictures of 'H's in this scheme are available?

[Quixote74]

For an H-model the SIOP scheme places you circa 1970-1990, during which their role was primarily nuclear (the Gs and earlier models handled conventional bombing; in fact even as late as Desert Storm in 1991 the H models were kept on strategic alert while the G's did all the bomb trucking in Iraq & Kuwait).  Although H models were capable of carrying conventional weapons, it wasn't their primarily role until after the end of the Cold War.

 

The AGM-86B ALCMs entered service in 1982, so well within the timeframe for SIOP (though the later three-color "strategic" scheme was increasingly worn from the mid-80s on).  These were typically carried on dedicated 12-round pylons under each wing.  Bearing in mind the nuclear role, a BUFF with a full load of ALCMs might also have carried either AGM-69 SRAM tactical nuclear missiles in the bomb bay, or various free-fall nuclear bombs.

 

As far as photos are concerned, try a search by date on Airliners.net for B-52H models between 1980 and 1990 if you want a  SIOP bird.  Unfortunately SAC policy during this era discouraged nose art but there were some rare exceptions.  In particular look for photos from RAF Bombing Competitons in the early 80s for some nose art and/or a bit of color.  If you look up the B-52 decal sheets produced in 1/72 by Cutting Edge, that may also give you some leads on some of the more photogenic options.  Otherwise you're usually limited to the wing badge and SAC shield.  During the SIOP era most units didn't even have unique tail markings.

 

Also keep in mind that in addition to the obvious presence of EVS and ECM antennae, there are other more subtle differences between an H-model today vs a 1980s example.  Once you settle on a specific subject/timeframe to model, you may want to check back here for comparison to Sanger's kit to be sure you have the details right.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Quixote74

[serendip]

21 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

For an H-model the SIOP scheme places you circa 1970-1990, during which their role was primarily nuclear (the Gs and earlier models handled conventional bombing; in fact even as late as Desert Storm in 1991 the H models were kept on strategic alert while the G's did all the bomb trucking in Iraq & Kuwait).  Although H models were capable of carrying conventional weapons, it wasn't their primarily role until after the end of the Cold War.

 

The AGM-86B ALCMs entered service in 1982, so well within the timeframe for SIOP (though the later three-color "strategic" scheme was increasingly worn from the mid-80s on).  These were typically carried on dedicated 12-round pylons under each wing.  Bearing in mind the nuclear role, a BUFF with a full load of ALCMs might also have carried either AGM-69 SRAM tactical nuclear missiles in the bomb bay, or various free-fall nuclear bombs.

 

As far as photos are concerned, try a search by date on Airliners.net for B-52H models between 1980 and 1990 if you want a  SIOP bird.  Unfortunately SAC policy during this era discouraged nose art but there were some rare exceptions.  In particular look for photos from RAF Bombing Competitons in the early 80s for some nose art and/or a bit of color.  If you look up the B-52 decal sheets produced in 1/72 by Cutting Edge, that may also give you some leads on some of the more photogenic options.  Otherwise you're usually limited to the wing badge and SAC shield.  During the SIOP era most units didn't even have unique tail markings.

 

Also keep in mind that in addition to the obvious presence of EVS and ECM antennae, there are other more subtle differences between an H-model today vs a 1980s example.  Once you settle on a specific subject/timeframe to model, you may want to check back here for comparison to Sanger's kit to be sure you have the details right.

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback Quixote - once again a lot of great information. Referring to your second paragraph I thought SIOP was brown and greens on top, white(ish) below, being worn after the (similar) Vietnam era SEA camouflage. 

 

I'm curious as to what the three colour strategic scheme is you mention.

 

Thanks,

 

Marc.

[Quixote74]

55 minutes ago, serendip said:

Thanks for the feedback Quixote - once again a lot of great information. Referring to your second paragraph I thought SIOP was brown and greens on top, white(ish) below, being worn after the (similar) Vietnam era SEA camouflage. 

 

I'm curious as to what the three colour strategic scheme is you mention.

 

Thanks,

 

Marc.

 

The SIOP scheme (named for SAC's Single Integrated Operational Plan, i.e. road map for WWIII) is technically three shades of green over white (FS 34079/34159/34201 over 17875).  The lightest green is a tannish shade and all the colors may weather to varied green/brown hues.  The upper colors are the same as the famous Vietnam-era B-52Ds that had black undersides.  B-52Hs adopted SIOP starting in the very late 60s/early 70s, from the previous "chrome dome" silver over white.

 

The SIOP scheme features a high contrast between the camouflage colors and the white nose (in some cases yellowish-tan/off white, apparently showing the fiberglass color under the paint).  To minimize this bright spot a variation of the SIOP scheme was developed, adding FS 36081 (aka Euro I gray) over the nose and wrapping the camouflage colors downward from the "waterline" demarcation to meet the base of the nose (back to a point near the forward gear bay doors).  This "Late SIOP" scheme began appearing around the same time as the Strategic scheme, and seems to have been somewhat more common on B-52Gs than H models.

 

The Strategic scheme was adopted starting circa 1986.  This is a two gray + one green scheme, FS 34086 (a dark olive green) and FS 36081 in a disruptive pattern over the upper surfaces, with a similar pattern of 36081 and FS 36118 (aka Gunship Gray) on the undersides.  These colors tended to fade and weather strangely, the green often appearing brown and all three colors tending to blend together, so at times they can look like a single color.*  By the time of Desert Storm in 1991 there were very few B-52Gs or B-52Hs left in the SIOP scheme.

 

*The Strategic scheme was itself replaced with a single-color scheme for ease of maintenance.  Initially (circa 1988) overall FS 36081 was used, but replaced quickly (circa 1991) with overall 36118, which is the scheme still used today.  In the late 80s/early 90s you could find a mix of all five color schemes (SIOP, late SIOP, Strategic, 36081, and 36118) but generally the latter three schemes prevailed.

 

Caracal has done an excellent series of decals for B-52s in 1/144 and 1/72, and has posted diagrams of the SIOP and Strategic schemes on their reference site:

 

Caracal B-52 Reference site

[serendip]

22 hours ago, Quixote74 said:

 

The SIOP scheme (named for SAC's Single Integrated Operational Plan, i.e. road map for WWIII) is technically three shades of green over white (FS 34079/34159/34201 over 17875).  The lightest green is a tannish shade and all the colors may weather to varied green/brown hues.  The upper colors are the same as the famous Vietnam-era B-52Ds that had black undersides.  B-52Hs adopted SIOP starting in the very late 60s/early 70s, from the previous "chrome dome" silver over white.

 

The SIOP scheme features a high contrast between the camouflage colors and the white nose (in some cases yellowish-tan/off white, apparently showing the fiberglass color under the paint).  To minimize this bright spot a variation of the SIOP scheme was developed, adding FS 36081 (aka Euro I gray) over the nose and wrapping the camouflage colors downward from the "waterline" demarcation to meet the base of the nose (back to a point near the forward gear bay doors).  This "Late SIOP" scheme began appearing around the same time as the Strategic scheme, and seems to have been somewhat more common on B-52Gs than H models.

 

The Strategic scheme was adopted starting circa 1986.  This is a two gray + one green scheme, FS 34086 (a dark olive green) and FS 36081 in a disruptive pattern over the upper surfaces, with a similar pattern of 36081 and FS 36118 (aka Gunship Gray) on the undersides.  These colors tended to fade and weather strangely, the green often appearing brown and all three colors tending to blend together, so at times they can look like a single color.*  By the time of Desert Storm in 1991 there were very few B-52Gs or B-52Hs left in the SIOP scheme.

 

*The Strategic scheme was itself replaced with a single-color scheme for ease of maintenance.  Initially (circa 1988) overall FS 36081 was used, but replaced quickly (circa 1991) with overall 36118, which is the scheme still used today.  In the late 80s/early 90s you could find a mix of all five color schemes (SIOP, late SIOP, Strategic, 36081, and 36118) but generally the latter three schemes prevailed.

 

Caracal has done an excellent series of decals for B-52s in 1/144 and 1/72, and has posted diagrams of the SIOP and Strategic schemes on their reference site:

 

Caracal B-52 Reference site

Great information Quixote.

 

I've got the 1/48 HPH kit so choices in decals are somewhat limited. I planned to backdate to a SAC NMF over white ship but the different nose contour of pre-EVS, now conformed thanks to Dutch rules this out.

 

I'll go with the SIOP scheme as shown in the first two Caracal overviews with AGM 86B stores. That seems to make historical sense according to the information you provided. I also just came across the site in the link below which seems very informative also:

http://www.theworldwars.net/resources/resource.php?r=camo_usaf#siop

 

I'll keep posting on this thread when I pick a particular aircraft and any help on which lumps and bumps are correct for that particular aircraft would be much appreciated.

 

Regards,

 

Marc.

 

 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by serendip

[serendip]

I've been checking which manufacturers supply SIOP colours but there aren't that many. Tamiya do XF-49 and 65 which come close to FS34201 and FS34109 resp., and Gunze C-309 for FS34079.

 

Any idea if those are accurate?

 

I'll be whitening considerably anyway for scale effect.

 

Thanks all,

[Quixote74]

You should find an equivalent for 34079 dark green in most paint lines, since it's a staple of the USAF Southeast Asia scheme (and used in some variants of "Euro I" camo as well).  34201 and 34159 are more esoteric shades, but lines that cater to FS595 may include them.  The late Testors Model Master II series included both, but stocks are probably hard to find since it was discontinued.  MRP/Mr. Paint also does both, but I can't comment on accuracy.

[ElectroSoldier]

Vallejo do the three SIOP colours in their SEA set
34079 Vallejo 71294

34201 Vallejo 71023

34159 Vallejo 71329

 

Model Master colours dont stack well with Vallejos idea of what the colour looks like, they are no hard find anyway.

MM was to the USA as Humbrol was to the UK. They were defacto because they were there, not because they we the best or even accurate.

 

While I love Tamiya paints myself, both acrylic and lacquer (because it makes me giddy:))))) their version of SIOP isnt.

Im not even sure if wearing shades indoors would fix their versions of those colours.

[Quixote74]

3 hours ago, ElectroSoldier said:

MM was to the USA as Humbrol was to the UK. They were defacto because they were there, not because they we the best or even accurate.

 

I agree that Testors and Model Master became the most commonly used/referenced paints in the U.S. mainly due to market saturation more than any quality/performance standards, but when the original MM line was released Testors made a point of matching to FS595 standards, and even in the MMII expansion and Acrylic range it was rare (IMHO) for their color fidelity to be very far off on modern U.S. colors (WWII and others are a different kettle of fish).  I can't speak to Vallejo or others' version of the SIOP colors specifically, but I don't find the MM version of those colors far off from my FS595 chips.

[SteveV22FE]

Not sure if this has been shared yet, but I have discovered, through the help of a very knowledgeable BUFF enthusiast, that the nose radome prior to the Phase IV modification is shorter.

 

 

Look at the number at the nose of the airplane.  And note that station "zero" is well in front of the plane.  The difference is 12.5".  So a Phase VI jet has a nose 12.5" longer than an early G model.  

 

 

I’m learning quickly that there are NO accurate early G models. The nose section of the “Early” AMT kit is nothing more than a late G with the additional radomes removed. I think ModelCollect did the same thing with their Early G kit as well. When I put the two side by side, the shape is exactly the same. So, both kits are inaccurate.

 

Also note:  the back end of the nose radome on early planes is at station 170.60.  It was later moved forward to 150.70...

When they put on the EVS system (TV and infrared camera under the nose) they removed the aft end of the radome and put aluminum structure there to hold up the EVS turrets.  The bulkhead, radar, and the struts that hold open the radome when maintenance is done didn’t need to be modified. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by SteveV22FE

[Teeradej]

Steve, the mystery solved... Thank you! Your excellent fuselage station diagrams clearly show different radome station number from the datum. Finger crossed someone will release any new early B-52G/H kit with correct radome style.

[Nigelr32]

This is the reply I have just given on the other thread.

 

I have just measured the nose on my early G with B28 bombs and my later G kit with updated nose.

 

Here are my findings.... the nose cone on the early G kit and the later G "incorrect" nose are the correct length for a later G/H with EVS, but too rounded in plan view. the later G and H nose as made by MC are too long and pointy. It's also noteworthy that the first "incorrect" nose and later "corrected" nose has no panel lines for the removable panels and nose cone, the early G nose has scribed detail to depict these panels. The incorrect nose originally released with the later G kit is the same outer profile as the early G nose.

 

So.. it looks like the early nose is the right length for a late aircraft after all, but it is too rounded in plan view. so MC made a longer pointier nose which in my opinion is the wrong shape.

 

I will make a corrected nose for the early G if there is enough interest?

Edited July 16, 2020 by Nigelr32

[Dutch]

Nigel, yes, I am interested!  Kind regards, Dutch in Florida.

[Nigelr32]

Hello guys..

 

Following a few minutes measuring the kits I have I can confirm that the modelcollect fuselage is too fat around the cockpit area, at least when comparing it to the Revell and AMT kits.

 

I have an old DB designs set for the H and the nose is designed to fit the Revell kit. Now, in my opinion the lines depicting the radome shut line on the Revell kit are too far forward, but the MC kit is a full 5mm wider at this point!!

 

It would appear MC have made the fuselage bulge out alongside and below the glazing, which is why everyone complainrd the original late nose was too short.. it isn't.. it's too fat!!

 

So, what do you want. A early G nose that looks right on a fat kit? I think I'll make it for the Revell AMT first.. it looks like it'll fit both kits?

[SteveV22FE]

I say go for the Monogram/Revell and AMT kits first. 

 

In my project, the AMT nose section mates perfectly with the Monogram fuselage. Almost like it was made for it. In that respect, I'd say AMY got that part of it right, they just messed up the rest of it as you have noticed in you videos.

[serendip]

On 7/14/2020 at 9:00 PM, ElectroSoldier said:

Vallejo do the three SIOP colours in their SEA set
34079 Vallejo 71294

34201 Vallejo 71023

34159 Vallejo 71329

 

Model Master colours dont stack well with Vallejos idea of what the colour looks like, they are no hard find anyway.

MM was to the USA as Humbrol was to the UK. They were defacto because they were there, not because they we the best or even accurate.

 

While I love Tamiya paints myself, both acrylic and lacquer (because it makes me giddy:))))) their version of SIOP isnt.

Im not even sure if wearing shades indoors would fix their versions of those colours.

Thanks for that. I'm not crazy about Vallejo, but with paint that's often a touch personal. I might go for a home brew on the basis of Gunze or Tamiya.

[serendip]

On 7/16/2020 at 3:27 PM, SteveV22FE said:

Not sure if this has been shared yet, but I have discovered, through the help of a very knowledgeable BUFF enthusiast, that the nose radome prior to the Phase IV modification is shorter.

 

 

Look at the number at the nose of the airplane.  And note that station "zero" is well in front of the plane.  The difference is 12.5".  So a Phase VI jet has a nose 12.5" longer than an early G model.  

 

 

I’m learning quickly that there are NO accurate early G models. The nose section of the “Early” AMT kit is nothing more than a late G with the additional radomes removed. I think ModelCollect did the same thing with their Early G kit as well. When I put the two side by side, the shape is exactly the same. So, both kits are inaccurate.

 

Also note:  the back end of the nose radome on early planes is at station 170.60.  It was later moved forward to 150.70...

When they put on the EVS system (TV and infrared camera under the nose) they removed the aft end of the radome and put aluminum structure there to hold up the EVS turrets.  The bulkhead, radar, and the struts that hold open the radome when maintenance is done didn’t need to be modified. 

Steve, that's wonderful stuff. The 12.5 inches equates to 0.67 1/48th centimeters (or .26 old school inches). The main thing is it shows the difference in profile beautifully. I'm wondering if the dimples were also inherent to the new nose job.

 

Any chance of cross sectional views?

 

Thanks,

 

Marc.

[Quixote74]

6 hours ago, serendip said:

I'm wondering if the dimples were also inherent to the new nose job.

 

Assuming by "dimples" you're referring to the grooves on either side of the nose, just below and forward of the NACA inlets, these were part of the change in nose contours for the G & H models as built.  The chines appear to be extended on the post Phase VI radome, presumably because of the increased length of the nose.

 

More discussion & photos on the Modelcollect thread:

B-52 G/H nose chines

[Nigelr32]

I have put together a video this morning on my findings with all the kits.

 

 

 

[serendip]

Hi Nigel,

 

Great video. I have the HPH 1/48th kit but the video is still valuable as I'm considering backdating the kit to an early chrome dome era H.

 

I'm wondering though if you also compared the kits in your video to actual line drawings or only compared them to each other.

 

Thanks,

 

Marc.