niart17 Posted February 18, 2019 Author Share Posted February 18, 2019 Well, that graphic does make it seem like there would be a part of the collar still showing between the two craft. Hmmm....still a mystery. I'd love to clear this up if anything just to know out of curiosity. Anyone else have any insight? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Saturn5Tony Posted February 20, 2019 Share Posted February 20, 2019 Looking really great so far. Awesome detail finds as well. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted February 21, 2019 Share Posted February 21, 2019 While looking for some info for my CM's docking probe, I ran across this CGI from John Ortmann ... the 2 vehicles are flush and I tend to agree with this image. Reading in Virtual Apollo on page 48, " ... A crewman then activates the probe retraction device, a nitrogen pressure system located in the probe head, which automatically pulls the LM and CM together." The beauty of your situation is that nobody can say for sure, at least none of us recreational Real Space modellers, what is correct. And John Ortmann always did his homework and outstanding research, so I would go with this. But that's just me-e-e. Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 21, 2019 Author Share Posted February 21, 2019 I think that's what I'm going to go with. I mean, I think that's what most people would expect to see and would also be easiest to get a good strong solid join when it's mounted. BTW, I found another source for the gold foil that I think is much closer than the gold I was using. This is from a gold Mylar party balloon. Seems to work pretty well and I think I have the wrinkles a little better with this stuff. It's still not exactly like the real deal, but I think for me it'll do. Thanks everyone. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ApolloMan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Sorry Bill, if we have hijacked ya build. It's going great by the way. I will get one of those balloons next time I'm in the party section of our Spotlight stores. I'm going to start mine after my Apollo 11 build. Thanks Pete, we gotta start a new thread somewhere on this docking collar. Cause that pic you put up. I can see the collar 😂. Also the chrome ring that sits outside the docking collar, does that not sit flush with LM? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Not hijacking at all, that's the whole point of these threads. I asked the question and I'm more than happy to have the discussion here. Thanks for being concerned about that though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ApolloMan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Here is the ring around the collar Another of the pics Pete found Model with collar around docking collar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Mick, you're right. ( you've got a good eye re: John Ortmann's CGI ... ) I found this illustration showing the Docking Collar flush to the LM. The Docking Collar sits flush to the LM and the Probe retracts into it. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Probe-and-drogue-operations.png Mick you showed, earlier in this thread, an image of Apollo 13's LM with the Docking Collar attached to it. It's severed when the LM is jettisoned, along with the probe and drogue. The last paragraph in this brief explanation supports the Apollo 13 LM's image too. https://www.quora.com/How-did-Apollo-astronauts-move-from-the-command-module-into-the-lunar-module-with-the-locking-device-in-place So Bill, the Docking Collar is fixed, it doesn't retract, to the CM and sits flush to the LM. Now, I'd like to find out just how the latches work to hold the LM. I sure hope this helps! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ApolloMan Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Yar I remember reading, only 3 of the 12 latches are needed to engage, and get the seal. I'd say it's the 3 drogue mounts that the drogue assembly sits, in the LM. The 2 red rings on the CM (1 on the model pic) collar top, can be seen imprinted on the LM docking ring on last pic of the previous page. Then there is a gas of sort to help the seal. Further reading the last time they separate, it's with pyrotechnics, to cut the collar away. Maybe on 13 they kept the probe for weight, as it's not seen with the collar on Aquarius. I'm really finding all this info fascinating. Thanks Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 ok, so now I'm back to agreeing there is a bit of the collar exposed. So I will put the collar on the CM and let that be the spacer between the two crafts. whew, that was quite a fun and interesting journey to find that information. Thanks for all your help guys! Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Apollo 9 was the only mission that had an EVA while docked with the LM. Wonder if there are any relevent pics from the EVA ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 That's a good point. Did he move up to the front of the CM during the EVA? I know he climbed down the side of the SM but not sure what else he did. I'd be curious to see if there are any pics like that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 The EVA was a bit of a bust because Rusty was sick the day before and they were all still cautious ... Dave didn't get out of the CM except to turn around and retrieve some test items form the SM. There's not much in the way of images from Apollo 9. Here's the Apollo Archive site ... http://www.apolloarchive.com/apollo_gallery.html Click on Apollo 9 in the Apollo Image Gallery in the Left upper corner and enjoy the search ... But this exercise has been quite fun. I may have assumed the Docking Collar retracted into the CM and ... now I know! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 This is the most famous one, there must be more... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 22, 2019 Author Share Posted February 22, 2019 Now I'm interested in where the camera that took that shot was mounted and what other cameras have been mounted to these older Apollo crafts during missions. It looks like thats from the top of the decent stage, maybe close to the ladder platform? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 All the EVA pix were taken either by Rusty, as in this case, or Dave ... or Jim. Cameras weren't mounted on the vehicles. And you're correct, this was taken while standing on the 'porch'. Schweikart didn't venture very far from this, in that, he didn't grab the EVA rail and go to the CM ... he stayed pretty close to the LM's hatch. So pix of the joint between the LM and CM ... non-existent. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 26, 2019 Author Share Posted February 26, 2019 (edited) Well work continues. I started foiling the descent stage and leg supports. I'm trying not to rush the foil process as it's easy to just jump in and it come out looking like a big wrapped piece of candy instead of a large vehicle with foil carefully applied to certain areas. Here is a shot with it sitting next to big brother. Once I get enough of the 1/32 scale one printed out I'll start buddy building it along side this one to optimize some of the building processes. Edited February 26, 2019 by niart17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 Foiled again....sorry couldn't resist. Anyway, the foiling continues. Trying to get a somewhat convincing amount of wrinkleliness but not overkill at scale. I'm doing Apollo 12 so trying to follow pics mostly from the moon to get some of the smaller details. One thing I noticed is what look like labels (?) close to the edges of some of the black area panels. I can't tell if it's actually labeling or just Kapton tape . In the pic below I added one of those small rectangles to see if gold foil looks right. Any ideas what they actually are anyone? I know there's a lot of taped areas but these look like locations where a id marker or something would be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 You got it right. It's Kapton tape. And I assume it's to tape up seams and tears and finger pokes in the Kapton film. Plus, the Techs that installed the stuff had a bit of a sense of humour and when they hid their Easter eggs, they needed to hide the holes ... believe it or don't! And the foil's wrinkles look spot on Bill! I can't improve on your install! Nicely done! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted March 6, 2019 Author Share Posted March 6, 2019 Thanks Pete, so I guess I'll just continue with all of them being foil strips. I'll have to try to remember to post the images that made me think they MIGHT be labels instead of simply tape. In a couple they appear a slightly different color and you can ALLLLLMOST make out what could be text. But I'm probably overthinking it. So I have 2 of the quads mostly done and just to add the little tape pieces etc..., all of the gold leg support areas are done and I need to put the black foil around the top supports. That's an area that in my eyes changed quite a bit from the ground pics to the pics on the moon. They apparently got a lot more "messed up" looking somewhere between assembly and landing. The assembly pics are all nice an even looking sheets and then on the moon looks like left over chicken legs wrapped in tin foil. Pics to come soon....ish. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ret Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 I found this photo at : https://www.flickr.com/photos/projectapolloarchive/21290651923/in/album-72157659417330651/ taken by Dave Scott - probably the best view any one had with a camera - maybe what you're looking for? -ret Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ApolloMan Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Hmmm, that's not hard up against. You can see a reflection of the red docking ring, which indicated a gape. Great find. Also the shot of the hand hold is good. Are they designed to be callapsable? I know the BPC has raised detail on the outside for these. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 28 minutes ago, ApolloMan said: Also the shot of the hand hold is good. Are they designed to be callapsable? I know the BPC has raised detail on the outside for these. Just that one handhold was collapsible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted March 7, 2019 Author Share Posted March 7, 2019 That is an AWESOME fine.True it doesn't give a complete picture of the joint, but it certainly adds a huge piece to the puzzle. And little nuggets like the collapsed hand held are pure gold. Thanks for that! Hey Pete, I'm wondering if maybe there could be some sort of reference page set-up in this GB just for such instances since a lot of us are working on similar projects. Pics like this would help anyone doing such a project and it would be great if they didn't have to remember who's build thread the pic was in or worse, totally miss it because they didn't visit that thread. Not sure how it would be best set-up but something to rattle around the brain cage for a bit and come up with something maybe. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted March 8, 2019 Share Posted March 8, 2019 12 hours ago, niart17 said: I'm wondering if maybe there could be some sort of reference page set-up in this GB just for such instances since a lot of us are working on similar projects. Pics like this would help anyone doing such a project and it would be great if they didn't have to remember who's build thread the pic was in or worse, totally miss it because they didn't visit that thread. Hm-m-m-m ... I don't think it's at all necessary. I just dragged that image to my desktop and if I want, I'll put it into a reference folder for my own build. Earlier, I provided a link to Apollo Archive which along with ALSJ are my 'go to' sites and Ret provided a link as well. There are 100's of images on those sites, specific to whichever Mission you're modelling ... and it'll take just a tiny, itsy bit of effort to search through those images. I know, when I've done it, I always find excellent images that I can use as well that I wasn't even looking for. So the easy way is just save the image you see in a post and put it in your own reference folder somewhere on your computer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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