Whiskey Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 That's a real bummer as I was very much looking forward to my daughter watching her this year at the air show. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26469/air-force-sacks-first-female-to-lead-a-fighter-demonstration-team-after-just-two-weeks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 What do you have to do to lose confidence in only two weeks on the job? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 May have nothing to do with flying but rather something else like management/command skills or something. I can imagine leading something like that is quite the task. Perhaps she just wasn't quite ready for that role but with time could move to those positions. And some people never do develop that scope of leadership. As long as people aren't forced into a role in order to meet some arbitrary quota or milestone then there's no problem. Not saying that's the case here but it could be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Agree that it probably isn’t a flying issue. She wouldn’t have got there if she wasn’t a good pilot. Whether it’s management or command, you still have to do something pretty big to get canned in only two weeks, and presumably her leadership ability had been taken into account prior to getting the job. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
southwestforests Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Guess that like an old saying says, the thing to do is "Stay tuned for further developments". Quote We don't know for certain the circumstances surrounding this abrupt dismissal, but it's very likely that we will soon. Hmm, this from November about a previous Thunderbirds commander is linked, http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/25076/sacked-thunderbirds-boss-took-formation-supersonic-placed-hands-around-neck-of-pilot Will be interesting to compare situations and see if there might be a common management and promotion problem in the Air Force. Quote ... and a generally hostile and risk-taking management style led to tensions with those directly under his command to boil over at the Maryland bar on September 11th. ... Ironically, Heard stated the following when he was selected to head the Thunderbirds in November of 2016: “To me, service as a Thunderbird is both an honor and a privilege... It requires significant sacrifice rewarded by the trust our fellow airmen place in us to represent them to the public. I promise to provide adaptive leadership, maintain the standards and fly a safe show.” Clearly, that was a hollow declaration considering what we know now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dave Williams said: Agree that it probably isn’t a flying issue. She wouldn’t have got there if she wasn’t a good pilot. Whether it’s management or command, you still have to do something pretty big to get canned in only two weeks, and presumably her leadership ability had been taken into account prior to getting the job. I'd argue that in this day and age, you don't have to do something "pretty big" to get canned. Ask the B-52 squadron commander who got relieved because someone drew a "pee-pee" in the cockpit of one of his bombers. Could have been an inappropriate comment to a subordinate or even worse, something she put out on social media; could have been in an "inappropriate relationship". Doesn't take much these days (especially, it seems, in the USAF and Navy) to get relieved of your command. Or maybe it was a flying issue. Even good pilots have been known to violate safety regs. I'm sure the reason will be out on social media shortly..... Edited February 13, 2019 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 If you guys are gonna speculate why not do it over in the AMK F-14 thread where all rampant speculation belongs ? just sayin’..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 If you read any news item posted here, you’ll find it followed by lots of speculative posts. It’s the nature of things. Without this, ARC would be even quieter than it already is. Plus, we wouldn’t want to dilute the inherent goodness and razor sharp focus of the AMK Tomcat thread with this topic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) Lest we actually converse and discuss things on a discussion board. Especially aircraft related subject. Habu2, I love ya man, you seem like a good nice guy. But you kind of seem to go off (not crazy like so I don't mean that)on people who are simply having conversations about things. If things get too uncivil I'm sure the mods will step in and shut it down. But so far it's mainly just talk about things that some find interesting. Maybe it's stupid locker room talk and useless. But that's kind of what people do. Peace be with ya man! Bill Edited February 13, 2019 by niart17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) Apparently the guy who relieved the gal has a politically incorrect skeleton in his closet. http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26479/commander-that-fired-zoe-kotnik-from-f-16-demo-team-made-this-crass-video-15-years-ago Just have to shake your head at all this... First for those folks who actually are stupid enough to put stuff like this on social media ("Heck, that video was 15 years old, no one will ever remember it!"). Looking good Maestro... Secondly, the sad fact that based on this video, I'm sure people in certain quarters will now be clamoring for this guy's head. Crazy world we live in. #savezoe Edited February 13, 2019 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raptor01 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 I will wait to hear the official reason, but willing to bet it will be the typical obfuscated USAF explanation. Anyone affiliated with the USAF knows what a Green Dot infraction is and it is a one strike air force, even if you foul it off. It is not a good thing what has happened to the US Military during the last 20 years, especially during the last administration. FWIW John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) I tell you, not to get political or anything. but if this culture of roasting people for saying or doing stupid things in the past doesn't stop there isn't going to be anyone ANYWHERE that is safe from anything. People being offended and thinking that being offended is justified means of ending a person's career and livelihood. It's crazy and it really needs to stop. And that goes for ALL sides of the spectrum Bill Edited February 13, 2019 by niart17 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snake36bravo Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 "Loss of confidence" in her ability to lead the team and 'mistakes she made' which is just Air Force speak for we know but wont lift the covers so you can view the corpse and identify the body. It could be anything and anything is speculative from an alcohol incident to extramarital affair or she just pissed in the wrong person's cornflakes like maybe the Wing Commander who relieved her. Or maybe, just maybe, she hit the Peter Principle and rose above her level of competence because I saw plenty of that myself in service. Since she deleted her social media and is in a 'black out' she's likely in career saving mode. Probably a good thing lightbulb since OSINT is a thing. I just hope she doesn't off herself over it. You mean the military was great 20 years ago? Probably right. My Fun Meter was fully pegged from 92 to 2000. Even when it wasnt. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
305swag Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 8 hours ago, Dave Williams said: What do you have to do to lose confidence in only two weeks on the job? Well I could think of a whole lotta crap😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raptor01 Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 Endorsed by a General Officer, relieved by a Colonel after 2 weeks after a “loss of confidence to lead” pretty ballsy on the O-6’s part. Remember what Hack said in Hazardous Duty about the Perfumed Princes in the Pentagon. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted February 13, 2019 Share Posted February 13, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raptor01 said: It is not a good thing what has happened to the US Military during the last 20 years, especially during the last administration. FWIW John I’d suggest that the current path down this slippery slope started with Tailhook. Edited February 13, 2019 by 11bee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Whiskey Posted February 14, 2019 Author Share Posted February 14, 2019 I am not trying to speculate as I wasn't there but I can definitely say that during my years on the enlisted side of things we saw all kinds of reasons for both senior noncoms and officers to be relieved but I honestly can't think of anything that would get a Captain relieved after only 2 weeks on the job. That's gotta be some serious Doo Doo involved. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raptor01 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I’m surprised someone isn’t triggered by the name Blue Angels.🤣 Sooner or later offense will be taken by some gender challenged member. Flying was probably more fun in the cockpit with a joystick!🤣🤣🤣 John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waco Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) First of all, Maestro is an exceptional, humble, dedicated commander, and I think Rogoway’s article dragging him is utter garbage writing at its worst. He had to go back 15+ years, to find a video that was never for public consumption, for which the dude was already punished (LOR and some time on the ground), and from which he’s recovered nicely. I’d be more interested in seeing who was the chicken-ish who leaked that to Rogoway than I am in seeing anything more on that topic. As far as Capt Kotnik, if anyone thinks the Wg/CC fired her from the demo lead job without informing and discussing with the entire chain of command, you don’t much get how this works. This young fighter pilot was endorsed and celebrated by everyone up to and including the SecAF. You don’t take disciplinary action against a public figure like that without first informing the senior leadership so they are prepared for blowback (and the AF knew there’d be some). I’m certain—bet my next paycheck certain—the entire AF senior leadership knew, approved, and supported this disciplinary action. Returning to the Rogoway’s article and his smear attempt, there is nothing illegal or immoral about the video. It is immature, crass, and a little crude, but it doesn’t cross those thresholds. Also, Maestro was not in a public position as the face of the Air Force when he participated in making that video. Capt Kotnik was very much the public face of the AF. If she did something illegal or immoral, then yes, she should’ve immediately been removed from the position. If she did something that, if public, would reflect poorly on the values, image, or messages the AF entrusted her to present, then she should’ve been immediately removed from her position. So it’s very likely the conduct or event responsible for her removal falls into those categories. Coincidentally, those types of incidents or events tend to be extremely embarssing and have the potential to stick with someone’s reputation forever. So it is extremely likely the AF (and the 20FW/CC) are trying to help her out by NOT publicizing said event. Rogoway continuing to force the spotlight on her is not helping. I’d argue, given his own very public embarrassment, Maestro knows better than anybody how to handle this with tact and consideration for the affected airman. The range of things that would be valid justification for removing her in such a short timeframe is too lengthy to list. A few: DUI, fraternization, assault, public drunkenness, etc. does it do Caot Zotnik any favors if one of those is thrown in the public arena? No, it does not. The young fighter pilot pilot has received her punishment. Now, folks can fight to have her story drug out and potentially make it worse, or they can trust the Commander who has publicly stated he wants her to have a second chance, continue to build her career, and, hopefully, learn from her Wing Commander’s example of how you recover from an event like this. quote/ #savezoe /endquote Yes, by letting her keep her privacy and dignity intact, and trusting the Commander looking out for her best interests. Edited February 14, 2019 by Waco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Murph Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 (edited) Funny, I know of at least two other demo pilots that were replaced over the years, and Rogoway's underwear remains unbunched over their fates; I wonder what the difference is? Regards, Murph Edited February 14, 2019 by Murph Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Raptor01 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 I see another TFAT CBT coming, more Green Dot training and the damned email lectures! 🤣🤣🤣 John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST0RM Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 LOL. I love it when Waco rolls in and drops logic and facts into these topics. He and I were around when my former CO was removed for a "loss of confidence", just before our OSW deployment in 2000. Gotta know your audience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Waco Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 Good grief, I’d almost purged that memory, Storm. What a train wreck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ST0RM Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 37 minutes ago, Waco said: Good grief, I’d almost purged that memory, Storm. What a train wreck. Indeed! And at the same time as my NCOIC and I were under investigation for "promoting a hostile work environment". All false accusations from some disgruntled airmen who were being non-retained. But they all became life lessons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted February 14, 2019 Share Posted February 14, 2019 4 hours ago, Murph said: Funny, I know of at least two other demo pilots that were replaced over the years, and Rogoway's underwear remains unbunched over their fates; I wonder what the difference is? Because it's clickbait and clicks mean money in his pocket. Always follow the money. Always. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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