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Scott Taylor

Air-to-Air Combat Between India and Pakistan

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I'm surprised that there hasn't been any mention yet of the aerial combat between India and Pakistan that started after Indian Mirage 2000s attacked targets on the Pakistani side of the border in Kashmir yesterday. Aside from the concern we should have over hostilities between two nuclear powers, I find it interesting that India would send MiG-21s into combat in 2019. 

 

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/india-confirms-loss-of-mig-21-in-pakistan-skirmish-456148/

 

I understand that a second Indian aircraft and a Pakistani aircraft (F-16?) have also been shot down. Has anybody more information on the combat? 

 

I do hope that this ends soon, and that nobody else in hurt.

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

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4 hours ago, Scott Taylor said:

I understand that a second Indian aircraft and a Pakistani aircraft (F-16?) have also been shot down. Has anybody more information on the combat?  

 

All we know is what they are saying and they are saying different things. Each side is claiming another plane shot down, each side denies any of theirs (outside the one certain MiG-21) has been lost, Pakistan is denying F-16's have been used, each side has claimed fantastic success in their bombing runs, each side says the other has only bombed empty ground. Oh, and India is claiming a Pakistani drone was shot down by their anti-aircraft.

 

The truth is going to have to wait. Maybe forever.

 

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Yup...the whole story is pretty foggy at this point.

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Could possibly have a new Mig Killer in the line-up!

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Mirage 2000s of Indian Air Force intruded into Pakistan side of Kashmir purportedly to target 'terrorist sanctuary' at 2:55am Tuesday. As PAF scrambled its JF-17s, they left the airspace jettisoning their payload in an uninhabited border zone. No casualties except trees in the forest. 

 

Next day Pakistan Air Force in daylight crossed into Indian side of Kashmir flying two JF-17s, locked on to six targets. The PAF pilots disengaged as the intention was to express the will to attack and to prove capability that PAF too can cross the border. As they were returning, Indian Air Force scrambled two jets. One was engaged in Pakistani airspace and downed. Its fighter pilot was captured. He has been shown on TV being interrogated. The other jet was also engaged and it crashed on Indian side of border. 

 

In all this operation, Pakistan never used F-16s. Only used Pakistan locally made JF-17s.

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Yup....time for cooler heads to prevail.

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11 hours ago, stalal said:

 

 

In all this operation, Pakistan never used F-16s. Only used Pakistan locally made JF-17s.

And yet India recovered portions of an AIM-120C-5 missile afterwards.  This would indicate that to the contrary, PAF F-16s were involved.  

 

It would make sense for the Pakistanis to minimize any role their F16’s had since they are actively marketing the JF-17.   

 

 

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Posted (edited)

If India has proof that it shot down PAF F-16, why did it not show the wreckage right away? Just like Pakistan showed the wreckage of downed MiG-21. 

 

India is coming up with 'evidence' after 2 days while Pakistan showed evidence the same day. 

 

Where did part of the AIM-120 come from? Was it from a shot down aircraft? Was the missile fired from the jet and part of it landed somehow? Did the F-16 crash in Pakistan or in India? 

 

AIM-120 is not compatible with JF-17 which has its own suite of weapons kept separate from American systems. 

 

The serial number of AIM-120 Indians are showing was sold to Taiwan.

Edited by stalal

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 11bee said:

And yet India recovered portions of an AIM-120C-5 missile afterwards.  This would indicate that to the contrary, PAF F-16s were involved.  

 

It would make sense for the Pakistanis to minimize any role their F16’s had since they are actively marketing the JF-17.   

 

 

I’d love to read the article where you learned about this.  Do you have the source?

 

EDIT - Nevermind, I found it.  

Edited by Falconxlvi

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8 hours ago, stalal said:

If India has proof that it shot down PAF F-16, why did it not show the wreckage right away? Just like Pakistan showed the wreckage of downed MiG-21. 

 

India is coming up with 'evidence' after 2 days while Pakistan showed evidence the same day. 

 

Where did part of the AIM-120 come from? Was it from a shot down aircraft? Was the missile fired from the jet and part of it landed somehow? Did the F-16 crash in Pakistan or in India? 

 

AIM-120 is not compatible with JF-17 which has its own suite of weapons kept separate from American systems. 

 

The serial number of AIM-120 Indians are showing was sold to Taiwan.

I believe the SN of the missile showed it was part of a batch sold to both Taiwan and Pakistan.    I’ve seen no published proof that an F-16 was shot down.   Both countries tend to embellish / outright lie about these issues.  Only fact proven true so far is that an IAF MiG was shot down.  

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The remnants of the 555FS F-16C shot down over Yugoslavia on May 1, 1999, Serial 88-0550 shows that even a jet that explode leave quite large parts behind; wings, tail, tailplanes etc. 

Showing off these parts, kinda like the MiG-21 Bison parts the PAF have shown would be the correct "proof" of a jet shot down. From those parts you would then be able to say what type of plane it was. 

Showing off a missile is just showing that it was fired. No more. 

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1 hour ago, Niels said:

The remnants of the 555FS F-16C shot down over Yugoslavia on May 1, 1999, Serial 88-0550 shows that even a jet that explode leave quite large parts behind; wings, tail, tailplanes etc. 

Showing off these parts, kinda like the MiG-21 Bison parts the PAF have shown would be the correct "proof" of a jet shot down. From those parts you would then be able to say what type of plane it was. 

Showing off a missile is just showing that it was fired. No more. 

Correct.  The only issue is that the Pakistanis stated that only JF-17’s were involved.  Those jets don’t carry AMRAAMs.   The debris from that missile contradicts their statement.  

 

 Aside from that, as it stands now and despite statements from both sides,  the only jet that is proven to have been lost is that MiG.    

 

I do find it curious that the IAF would use those MiG’s for such a critical mission, vrs one of their much more modern aircraft.  

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2 hours ago, Niels said:

The remnants of the 555FS F-16C shot down over Yugoslavia on May 1, 1999, Serial 88-0550 shows that even a jet that explode leave quite large parts behind; wings, tail, tailplanes etc. 

Showing off these parts, kinda like the MiG-21 Bison parts the PAF have shown would be the correct "proof" of a jet shot down. From those parts you would then be able to say what type of plane it was. 

Showing off a missile is just showing that it was fired. No more. 

 

The plane crashed on Pakistani Kashmir side.

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Why does either country have to prove to the world they shot down a plane?

 

There may be tactical advantages to either confirming or denying an incident that are much more important than Your Need To Know. 

 

This is combat, not journalism.

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Well, given that this could in the far extreeme can escalate to a nuclear war given both parties have the bomb(s), finding out what is true from both sides is important. And claims to which side have shot down what is part of that. I personnally don't see remnants of a missile as proof. Parts of aircraft would however, and so far only wreckage of the MiG-21 have been displayed. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, habu2 said:

Why does either country have to prove to the world they shot down a plane?

No idea but both sides are sure trying pretty hard to get their version accepted as the truth.  Assume it’s mainly for domestic consumption.  

 

Kinda similar to the big dog and pony show the US Navy held when they shot down that Syrian jet. 

 

Edited by 11bee

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2 hours ago, pacheco said:

 

The plane crashed on Pakistani Kashmir side.

 

The plane that crashed on Pakistani side is Indian MiG-21. 

 

In this world of social media, if there was Pakistani aircraft crashing on Pakistani side, a video or photo would be already out. 

 

The onus is on India to show the plane or the captured pilot. Indians are trying to hide their embarrassment. A burning plane was shown plummeting toward the ground on Indian side in videos shared variously. Why dont Indians show that plane?  

 

War today is media manipulation where repeated lies become facts and truths. 

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25 minutes ago, stalal said:

 

War today is media manipulation where repeated lies become facts and truths. 

This.....   instead of a space command, the US really needs a Social Media Command.   It really is an important aspect of any military operation these days. 

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3 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

I do find it curious that the IAF would use those MiG’s for such a critical mission, vrs one of their much more modern aircraft.  

 

This is an upgraded Mig-21 Bison. While it is clearly not state-of-the-art, its upgraded radar and weaponry (the Indian pilot who was shot down apparently managed to engage a Pakistani jet with an R-73)  probably makes it a worthy opponent for a non-upgraded Pakistani F-16 or even JF-17. The Indians are saying that it was part of a task force that included Su-30MKI's as well. The Mig-21 Bisons may have been part of a strike package, with the Su-30s protecting them.

 

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7 minutes ago, KursadA said:

 

This is an upgraded Mig-21 Bison. While it is clearly not state-of-the-art, its upgraded radar and weaponry (the Indian pilot who was shot down apparently managed to engage a Pakistani jet with an R-73)  probably makes it a worthy opponent for a non-upgraded Pakistani F-16 or even JF-17. The Indians are saying that it was part of a task force that included Su-30MKI's as well. The Mig-21 Bisons may have been part of a strike package, with the Su-30s protecting them.

 

Supposedly those aircraft performed pretty well against USAF F-15’s during an exercise a couple of years ago.  Just figured for air to air,  they’d use their Sukhois exclusively and for bombing, maybe Jaguars or another aircraft with more capabilities.  Didn’t think the MiG could carry much in the way of air to ground ordinance.   

 

Just random speculation....

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8 minutes ago, 11bee said:

Just figured for air to air,  they’d use their Sukhois exclusively and for bombing, maybe Jaguars or another aircraft with more capabilities.

 

Yeah, but you don't really get to chose all the time. India is a big country, and you use the jets that are close by. India has more than one disputed border these days.

 

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There are more reports on Pakistan media that a Su-30MKI that was part of the squad was also engaged by a Pakistani F-16 firing AIM-120 from inside Pakistan. 

 

There are also reports that Mi-17 of Indian Air Force which was used as EW platform was also hit. The helicopter 'crash' was confirmed by Indian media as well. 

 

Interviews with two JF-17 pilots have been put out on twitter. The two went across the Line of Control, the disputed border and engaged targets. On their way back, they slid under radar. The two MiGs came pursuing those two JF-17 and F-16 and another unnamed platform were providing cover to these two from inside Pakistan. The F-16 with its superior radar locked Su-30MKI that was deep inside Indian Kashmir and was hit by AIM-120C5. The two MiGs were also hit. The one shot down was inside Pakistan and the other was seen in a plummeting ball of fire seen by many on social media video. These interviews are not public.

 

If this reporting is true, then there are 4 aircraft hit - 2 MiG-21, 1 Su-30MKI and Mi-17V EW platform. The Indian Air Chief of region controlling Kashmir airspace has been fired today by their government.   All this before the war (which I hope never does) has started.   

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2 hours ago, KursadA said:

 

This is an upgraded Mig-21 Bison. While it is clearly not state-of-the-art, its upgraded radar and weaponry (the Indian pilot who was shot down apparently managed to engage a Pakistani jet with an R-73)  probably makes it a worthy opponent for a non-upgraded Pakistani F-16 or even JF-17. The Indians are saying that it was part of a task force that included Su-30MKI's as well. The Mig-21 Bisons may have been part of a strike package, with the Su-30s protecting them.

 

 

All Pakistan Air Force F-16s are now upgraded to Block 52 standard. Those were upgraded in Turkey. 

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Posted (edited)

deleted

Edited by stalal

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