Air-to-Air Combat Between India and Pakistan

[MoFo]

50 minutes ago, stalal said:

Yeah probably.  But American or Western sources are no better.  They do cheap propaganda and lie all the time. Media business is like that. 

 

No.  Not if they're reputable, they don't.

[11bee]

2 hours ago, MoFo said:

 

No.  Not if they're reputable, they don't.

Not always.   US media can sometimes also go the same route as other nations and opt to blindly root for the home team.   All you can do is read up on the subject from multiple sources and form your own opinions.   

[stalal]

March 23rd Pakistan Day formal Pakistan Air Force air patch. This confirms two Indian jets were shot down. A MiG-21 and Su-30MKI. 

 

Solo Turk pilot who performed aerobatics on that day also wearing the same patch. 

[southwestforests]

On 3/12/2019 at 11:38 AM, 11bee said:

I know these guys get slagged on a fair amount but they did a somewhat interesting article on this issue.

 

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26880/enough-with-the-indian-mig-21-bison-versus-pakistani-f-16-viper-bullshit

 

Not really any new info but they debunk some of the silly claims being kicked around by those who have agendas.    Also, they spend a bit of time discussing the MiG-21 Bison.   If you believe their take on it, this little aircraft was at least partially responsible for a good number of F-15 / EW upgrades that the USAF implemented in the last decade or so.

 

 

 

Interesting article.

 

Hmm, looking at the concept described in that paragraph, I'm pretty sure that's something our ground forces pulled on someone in the 20th century; and, maybe even in the 18th century.

Quote

But still, the message was clear—future enemies may be far more tactically resourceful than previously realized, regardless of the quality of their equipment.

 

[spejic]

8 hours ago, stalal said:

March 23rd Pakistan Day formal Pakistan Air Force air patch. This confirms two Indian jets were shot down.

 

I have a patch that says I am a member of SG-7, as shown on the documentary Stargate SG-1. Maybe patches don't mean much.

 

Except mine. That one is real.

 

[Whiskey]

8 hours ago, spejic said:

 

I have a patch that says I am a member of SG-7, as shown on the documentary Stargate SG-1. Maybe patches don't mean much.

 

Except mine. That one is real.

 

 

I stayed in a Holiday Inn one time and got a patch. Pretty sure that means I did or have been a part of anything I want to.

[GreyGhost]

We don' need no stinkin' patches!

 

-Gregg

[Waco]

Quote

I have a patch that says I am a member of SG-7, as shown on the documentary Stargate SG-1. Maybe patches don't mean much. 

Except mine. That one is real.

 

I call BS.  There have been two iterations of SG-7, both of which have been wiped out.  All of SG-7 original scientific research team was wiped out by a Goa'uld engineered virus; the second team was wiped out by the Reetou in a 3-way battle with Kali's Jaffa, excepting Captain Kirti Patel.  So unless you are Captain Patel, I call BS.

 

 

[habu2]

Luke, I am your father....

 

🚀

[spejic]

4 hours ago, Waco said:

 

I call BS.  There have been two iterations of SG-7, both of which have been wiped out.  All of SG-7 original scientific research team was wiped out by a Goa'uld engineered virus; the second team was wiped out by the Reetou in a 3-way battle with Kali's Jaffa, excepting Captain Kirti Patel.  So unless you are Captain Patel, I call BS.

 

 

 

Are you questioning my patch?

 

[Whiskey]

4 hours ago, Waco said:

 

I call BS.  There have been two iterations of SG-7, both of which have been wiped out.  All of SG-7 original scientific research team was wiped out by a Goa'uld engineered virus; the second team was wiped out by the Reetou in a 3-way battle with Kali's Jaffa, excepting Captain Kirti Patel.  So unless you are Captain Patel, I call BS.

 

 

 

[Waco]

Quote

Are you questioning my patch?

 

I might be questioning you!  Are you a Goa'uld infiltrator?  A Jaffa in disguise!?!  I've got a Zat, and I'm not afraid to use it!!!

[Ken Cartwright]

As long as we've got patches, we've got a shot...

 

 

[Slartibartfast]

15 hours ago, Waco said:

I've got a Zat, and I'm not afraid to use it!!!

And he might fire it twice!

[Mstor]

Oh, this is wonderful

[Dmanton300]

I got a Frecce Tricolori patch with a Meng G-91 a few years ago. This confirms I'm a member of the team, we're just waiting for my slot to come free.

[habu2]

My sister had a Cabbage Patch doll, that would prove she's .... ummmm..... errrrr......  welllll....   it proves nothing.

 

[graves_09]

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/did-india-shoot-down-a-pakistani-jet-u-s-count-says-no/

 

Unless the Pakistanis are playing an elaborate shell game, it appears the Indian claims of an F-16 kill are B.S.

[f5guy]

So at this point it's looking like Pakistan shot down an Indian AF MiG-21, Su-30, and helo with no loses. India is claiming that they shot down a Pakistan AF F-16B/D, but the US head count of their F-16 fleet says no. India also disputes the Su-30 shoot down, the wreckage of which fell in Indian territory. In video on the internet, the jet shown spiraling in is too small to tell what it is, but two chutes are visible, indicating a two seat aircraft such as an F-16B/D or Su-30. Pakistan says its an Su-30, India says its an F-16B/D. He said, she said is all that you get from either sides media. It seems to me that the ball is in India's court. The wreckage fell on their side of the border. Why have they not shown it? I have a hard time believing that if it were in fact an F-16B/D, they'd be parading it around for the world to see. So far it hasn't happened. I'm thinking that Pakistan might be right on this one. Time will tell. Fred K.

[stalal]

There was an amateur video from that day from Indian occupied Kashmir where people were saying in their local language while running towards the possible landing spot of fighter pilots 'where is the second one?'

 

Also from that same day Pakistan military spokesman said it has evidence of downing second jet. 

 

 

The MiG-21 pilot was shot down before he could fire any missile. All 4 missiles accounted for from the crash. From an Indian newspaper, the Indian ground controller kept warning the MiG-21 pilot not to go further as there is danger but could not hear anything due to radio jamming.

[f5guy]

7 hours ago, stalal said:

There was an amateur video from that day from Indian occupied Kashmir where people were saying in their local language while running towards the possible landing spot of fighter pilots 'where is the second one?'

 

Also from that same day Pakistan military spokesman said it has evidence of downing second jet. 

 

 

The MiG-21 pilot was shot down before he could fire any missile. All 4 missiles accounted for from the crash. From an Indian newspaper, the Indian ground controller kept warning the MiG-21 pilot not to go further as there is danger but could not hear anything due to radio jamming.

 

The evidence keeps mounting........   Fred K.

[Mfezi]

On 4/8/2019 at 4:21 PM, stalal said:

 

 

The MiG-21 pilot was shot down before he could fire any missile. All 4 missiles accounted for from the crash. From an Indian newspaper, the Indian ground controller kept warning the MiG-21 pilot not to go further as there is danger but could not hear anything due to radio jamming.

 

OK, I must admit I haven't been following the news around this very closely - there seems to be way too much unverified information floating around, combined with what appears to be propaganda put out by both sides. However, I'm curious: How did the Pakistani's explain the missing warhead of the R-73 on the right? Did it vaporize after the crash? Did someone take it?

 

I can't clearly see up to what point was recovered of the R-77 (second from the right of the picture). However, it appears the warhead section of that R-77 is also missing. I may be wrong - as I said, the perspective makes it a bit tricky on that one. It may just be the rocket section that is missing.

 

Anyway, I'm just curious. Most A-A missiles explode with an outward fragmentation pattern, which sometimes result in the nose sections simply being blown off. Both of those missiles on the right (or at least the parts that were recovered) look suspiciously like they may have been used. Just my two cents - there may be a good explanation for the missing warhead sections.

[11bee]

6 hours ago, Mfezi said:

 

 

Anyway, I'm just curious. Most A-A missiles explode with an outward fragmentation pattern, which sometimes result in the nose sections simply being blown off. Both of those missiles on the right (or at least the parts that were recovered) look suspiciously like they may have been used. Just my two cents - there may be a good explanation for the missing warhead sections.

 

That picture means nothing.

 

Both sides blatantly lie and use doctored "evidence".  I wouldn't believe either side if they told me fire was hot, (even if they had a flight suit patch stating "fire will burn you") I'd still need to verify for myself, because they have demonstrated zero truthfulness. 

 

Those missiles mean nothing.   Assuming they even came from the crashed Indian Bison, some/all could have been launched and missed, launched and detonated (not necessarily means they hit anything) or simply went down with the crashing Bison and were damaged in the crash or the motors/warheads cooked off in the ensuring fire.

[habu2]

Based on that pic I’d say four missiles were shot down. I don’t see any airplane parts.....

[Mfezi]

8 hours ago, 11bee said:

 

That picture means nothing.

 

Both sides blatantly lie and use doctored "evidence".  I wouldn't believe either side if they told me fire was hot, (even if they had a flight suit patch stating "fire will burn you") I'd still need to verify for myself, because they have demonstrated zero truthfulness. 

 

Those missiles mean nothing.   Assuming they even came from the crashed Indian Bison, some/all could have been launched and missed, launched and detonated (not necessarily means they hit anything) or simply went down with the crashing Bison and were damaged in the crash or the motors/warheads cooked off in the ensuring fire.

 

Agreed, 11bee. I simply responded to what I saw in the picture posted here and what was written beneath it. As I said, I haven't really followed this saga very closely, so I don't know if there was other corroborating information provided along with that picture. I'm just surprised that someone thought that by itself it somehow proves that the MiG in question never got a missile off - due to the missing parts it does in fact appear to suggest the opposite. From where I'm standing it looks like rather inept propaganda, possibly directed at a general public who doesn't have the insight to question it further. From the little I have seen on this topic, and as you pointed out, the Indians appear to have done pretty much the same: for example denying everything until the video of their pilot in Pakistani captivity was released.

 

The "staying humble" and "not drum beating" parts were quite funny though.